Just because a country has legalized gay marriages doesn''t necessarily mean it''s welcoming. Is any country truly close to Gay Nirvana?%0D\
If not, which is best?
Too many Islamic fundamentalists in many of those places now, so probably Germany, with Spain 2nd.
R3 Not with the Right Wing Conservative Party in total control now. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, is the only practicing Evangelical Christian head of state in the world. He tried several times to reverse gay equality and now he has his first majority.\
Canada doesn''t even place in the top 10 anymore and is going to get much worse over the next 5 years.
In my experience, Norway and Sweden. %0D\
I would have said the Netherlands about 10 ten years ago, but there has been a rise in homophobia (especially among some Muslims).%0D\
In countries like Canada and the UK, gay people are welcome, but I think behind the veil of political correctness there is still a huge amount of homophobia. It''s a case of tolerance, not acceptance.
It''s like anywhere...in the big metropolitan areas you''ll have more gay friendly people, but once you venture off into the countryside towns, if can get a little weird.\
I remember when I went to the South of France, which is the more conservative area of the country admittedly, I went to a gay bar with outdoor seating. I remember this asshole came up to the crowd, started screaming anti gay slurs and threw a glass at everyone. Those queens fought back though! This one guy was so enraged that he chased the guy all the way down the street.
Canada is collapsing like Pam Anderson''s breast. Uganda will have a better gay rights record than Canada in about 10 years.
Greenland, Holding Its Nose
My friend was gay bashed in Amsterdam of all fucking places, so I''d definitely scratch the Netherlands off the list. Also, he wasn''t attacked by Muslims, but rather Dutch youths.
How about Finland? I understand the president used to run a gay rights organization (though she is straight).%0D\
[quote]He tried several times to reverse gay equality and now he has his first majority.\
He tried once. Failed. and said the issue was over.
"He tried once. Failed. and said the issue was over."\
And you believe Harper? \
I never said I believed him.. I just pointed out that anyone who says he ''tried several times'' is stupid or ignorant.\
I believe THAT
The Philippines, France, Germany, The UK and\
Denmark don''t has same sex marriage and don''t belong on this list.
"My friend was gay bashed in Amsterdam of all fucking places, so I''d definitely scratch the Netherlands off the list."%0D\
You can''t say a country is homophobic because of an isolated incident. I''m sure there are gay bashings in almost EVERY country but they are a lot more prevalent in some than in others.%0D\
To determine how gay-friendly a country is, you should look at polls regarding how many people support gay rights and have gay positive attitudes, as opposed to just using anecdotal evidence or using an isolated incident to make assumptions about a whole country.
Despite the recent Conservative majority, Canada is still the most advanced nation on earth in terms of gay equality.
Sorry R18, not true. \
Canada was several years late to the full equality game and has just elected a PM who tried repeatedly to take equality away from Gays and now, he has a majority. \
Those ARE the facts.
Don''t trust polls R16. I take the Danes over the Dutch any day because the Dutch still have plenty of phobes, whereas I don''t think the Danes really do.
Why isn''t Iran on this list?
I live in Sweden and I don''t find it very gay friendly. On the surface, yes, but underneath there''s a lot of homophobia. Big cities (like Stockholm) are better places for gay people than smaller towns, as in most countries.
Sorry, R19, you are wrong. Stick with the FACTS.\
Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) rights in Canada are the most advanced in the Americas. LGBT Canadians have most of the same legal rights as non-LGBT citizens, and are extended more legal rights than many other nations where homosexuality is legal. Since 2005, Canada has offered civil marriage rights nationwide to same-sex couples. Canada was the third nation in the world where same-sex marriages were legally performed (commencing in 2003 in the province of Ontario), the fourth nation in the world to perform same-sex marriages nationwide, and it was the first nation in the Americas to perform such marriages nationwide.
r23, you say Canada is the ''most advanced in the Americas'' on LGBT rights, but at r18 you say Canada is ''the most advanced on earth in terms of gay equality''. The former statement I''m inclined to agree with, the latter statement not so much. %0D\
Where are your facts that Canada trumps some of the more liberal EU countries when it comes to gay rights? %0D\
WTF is up with you r24? What are you pushing?
Canada is now run by people who loathe gays. Protest all you want, canucks, but your country is now worse than America.
R26, I copied and pasted the first paragraph from Wikipedia - it wasn''t my statement. Gay people in Canada cannot donate blood and our age of consent laws are different for homosexuals compared to heterosexuals. Everything else is equal.\
R28, Harper might loathe gay men but he won''t take away our rights. Get back to me when you have evidence that he will. He will ignore us, for sure, but we are equal citizens unlike you in America who are despised along with atheists and Muslims. That said, he will probably send our country into economic chaos now just like yours.
Israel is pretty advanced. I have a YouTube channel dedicated to gay storylines from Israel and people always seem to be incredibly surprised by the tolerance in society that these reflect.
I heard that Taiwan was considering gay marriage. Does anyone know about this?%0D\
I''ve read that the Philippines is the most gay-friendly country on earth. Anyone know about this?
I''ve heard that about the Philippines but I don''t know if it''s accurate or not. Samoa is pretty accepting of gender-crossing homosexuality.
For a look at the Philippines, at least the ghetto side of it, check out [italic]The Blossoming of Maximo Oliveros[/italic]. It''s a story of the prissiest (but very very cute) boy you''ll ever see. The people around him are mostly accepting, though not everyone is.
I live in Denmark, and while we don''t have gay marriage, we were the first country to instate civil unions, which afford almost all of the same rights and priviledges that marriage does. %0D\
I''m not exactly sure why we don''t have actual gay marriage; all I can say is that there doesn''t seem to be a big push for it. We also aren''t very good at registering hatecrimes which is a shame.%0D\
As for overall friendliness: it seems to be a non-issue more than anything else. I don''t think people really care much about it one way or the other. We''re all a bit aloof, so probing into and commenting on other people''s lives is considered somewhat impolite.%0D\
Regarding muslims, immigration has pretty much stopped, and anything that can be used against them in public debate including gay-bashing, is. Make of that what you will.
NORWAY?!?! LMAO.. Norway is the most conservative and homophobic country out of ALL of the northern European countries. Our neighbors, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, hell, even Iceland are all more liberal and gay friendly than Norway. Most people here still think a marriage should be between a man and a woman, we even have a Christian freak suing the state right now because of the new marriage law, since, you know, her marriage is now somehow less worthy. I also read about gay bashings in the news basically every day, mostly in Oslo and Bergen. There's still a lot of homophobes out there, and being gay is still not generally accepted in the Norwegian society. Norway also has a TINY gay scene, the biggest one is in Oslo but the city only has like 4 gay bars and the muslims don't want the gays in their neighborhood. A cab driver even threatened a gay couple, needless to say he was a muslim. %0D
Yes, we have gay marriage, but this country is still so fucking conservative about social values and it's still so fucking Christian. It's a fact that Norway is the most conservative AND Christian nation in all of Scandinavia. Don't get fooled by the gay marriage. Most people are against gay marriage and adoption. It only happened because we have a socialist government. However, our second largest party is still extremely homophobic and racist, and against LGBT rights. %0D
I hate this shitty country. I'll move as soon as possible. I just hate it so much. I hate the people saying "we don't hate gays, but they can keep it to themselves, no need to talk about their preferences in the media" comments to gay bashings and gay discrimonation. I'm fucking sick of it. And it doesn't help that I live in the fucking bible belt either, conservative shithole. Western Norway, where the fjords are, may be the most beautiful parts of Norway but it's the bible belt. And that means a Christian and conservative shithole.%0D
I'll definitely move as soon as I can.
Philippines is so homophobic they don''t report HIV and the Catholic church uses them as the main example of how HIV can be stopped through persecution of gays. I don''t know what kind of morons we have here that voted for them.%0D
This thread is getting interesting. Norway sounds a lot like the states. I had no idea.
BTW the Philippines ranks No. 3 worldwide in number of Catholics with more than 70 million, but they only have liketwo elector cardinals (v. 21 in Italy). Catholics TAKE from the Philippines they don''t respect their little brown brothers.
Don''t you think you''re overreacting a bit? The public loves Gro Hammerseng and the rest of the lesbian handball players, don''t they?%0D\
All and all, Norway seems like a very decent place to live, even for a gay person, (there is another Norwegian poster here who loves to sing it''s praises). %0D\
I certainly wouldn''t mind living there for a while.
I don''t trust r36.
I live in Sweden and I don''t find it very gay friendly. On the surface, yes, but underneath there''s a lot of homophobia. Big cities (like Stockholm) are better places for gay people than smaller towns, as in most countries.%0D\
Really? What countries would you say are better. I say Sweden is pretty awesome, never seen so many gay couples walking around holding hands. But I do know that even Sweden have a bible belt and I guess is to be avoided. %0D\
[quote]I don''t trust [R36].\
Why? Because he''s saying things you''ve never heard before? How much time have you spent in Scandinavia, outside the big cities?
Norway passed marriage equality for their gay citizens by a 2/3''s majority. If that''s homophobia, I''ll take it.
r43, because he''s over the top. So much so that it seems like an agenda. It''s almost like a typical American DLer talking about the US.
It''s Iceland! Too bad . . . .It''s Iceland.
This thread is interesting. Here we have a native of a country explaining how it really is and then we have disgruntled Americans trying to discredit him because he''s just blown their fantasies of a white, gay utopia.
Maryland is a joke right...couldn''t get a marriage bill passes this year and no to transexual rights either...
The Vatican of course. The only country with a gay male head of state and a majority gay population.
You guys are nuts. Canada having a rightwing govt now, which won with 40% of the vote, does not magically make everyone in Canada a bad person who hates the gays. When GWB won a second time in the US we understood that it was the crazies'' fault. Now please afford us the same respect.\
I would put Germany and Canada up there as the most advanced on gay issues. There is of course variation in Canada from city to suburbs.
Canada is experiencing a backlash against Gays right now. Here is hoping it is cyclical.
After living through the last decade and experiencing the nadir in gay acceptance that swept the US in 2004 - 2007, I don''t have a lot of faith in polls, in geography, or in straight people. What a lot of us wanted from a gay rights movement was liberation, not assimilation, because the latter takes into account the feelings of straight people far too much. I want a world where it doesn''t matter what they think, but the current gay "leadership" wants little more than straight approval, which is deadly for those of us who''ve had to cope with their feelings and opinions, and now want nothing to do with them.
Netherlands - too many ignorant Muslims, watch your back!
For those having a hard time understanding Scandinavia, the posters above have done a good job of portraying the layers of reality.\
I always found growing up in Sweden that it''s not sex-phobia but an arrogance about the "superiority" of heterosexuality (why would you be gay?) combined with an alleged defense of our privacy (we''re not a very public people).\
And yet I know MANY young gay/bi men who are still not out because of the expectations that they''ll marry women, have kids, and live up to the happy Scandinavian sexual ideal.\
Throw in the Christians and the thugs that every nation has, and you realize that what we do have is OFFICIAL respect and an increasingly gay friendly population - which is better than most - but a long way to go in true public acceptance and not being marginalized.
R44, when are you going to get it? Sure, most POLITICAL PARTIES support gay rights, except for the progress party and the christian democratic party. So what? Does that say anything about the general attitudes in the society? NO. Norway is NOT like Sweden, Finland, Denmark or Iceland. Those countries are progressive and totally accept and respect gay people. Norway doesn't. We have A LOT of Christian freaks in this country, and especially where I live, in the bible belt. Most people here are against gay marriage. Western Norway is a mecca for christian freaks. We have more churches than I can count, and ALL of the priests in Bergen (second largest city in Norway)refuse to perform weddings for same sex couples. A woman from Bergen is even suing the state because of the new marriage law. People are being bashed every day. You see, Norway is still a VERY conservative society, where most people still think gays = freaks. %0D
Support for gay marriage in Norway is about 50-50, split. Many people STILL do not support gay marriage even though we've had it now for two years. Most people here still hate gays, and I read many comments every day that "gays are fine, as long as they keep to themselves." Even comments on articles about gay bashings read "he deserved it" or "it's his own fault for being flaming" or "why must the gays be in the news all the time, they just want attention." Those comments are more common than comments actually supporting the people getting bashed. %0D
Don't even get me started on Oslo where gay people are getting robbed and beaten every day. The muslims don't want gay in their neighborhood either. %0D
Is that gay paradise to you? If so, then by all means, come an live here. But I assure you, you will be missing the US in no time. The US is still backwards, but still so much better than Norway in regards to acceptance of gay people.
R56, you clearly have a lot of anger, but your perceptions are off the mark.\
You cannot generalize about life in the United States. Except in the largest cities, America is an extremely homophobic place. It is just as violent as the Norway you describe if not more so AND there is NO protection for gay people from discrimination and NO benefits for gay couples in most of the U.S. cities and states.\
As for Sweden being totally progressive, you''re being told by Swedes that this is not the case.\
You want respect for your perceptions of Norway but don''t seem to respect what people from Sweden and the U.S. are telling you.\
I''ve been to Norway and didn''t perceive it to be the daily hell you describe, but I accept your feelings come from some real experiences.\
But please don''t say the U.S. is a haven compared to Norway. The facts don''t support that.
[quote]Here we have a native of a country explaining how it really is.\
And you''re under the impression that all residents of a nation always speak honestly about it?
The reason to have this discussion is to hear the experiences of ALL people. I live in a large American city where I almost never encounter homophobia, and I can get married legally here. My experience is quite different from that of many people in the US, but my story needs to be heard. YOUR story needs to be heard. EVERY person''s story deserves to be heard.%0D\
It is in hearing the many varied experiences of real people in all places that we begin to understand the reality of our world and what we can expect to encounter in various places.
r53 = likely Lesbeau. Bitter anti-"assimilist" even though that is NOT what fighting for gay marriage is about.
R60: "Lesbeau?" Are you seriously mocking lesbians? What the fuck is the matter with you? Are you daft? Do you seriously hate lesbians? If so, you seriously need to seek help.%0D\
Leave that crap elsewhere.
R61 is clearly a newbie.
r60, also a lesbian
R57, where in Norway were you? Norway is very different from place to place, the general society is still homophobic and conservative though. But some places are still better than others. Northern Norway is for example more friendly than western Norway. Even Oslo have many different sides to it.. the western parts of Oslo is where the rich people live, and of course gays are accepted there. The eastern parts of Oslo on the other hand consists of 90 % immigrants, mostly muslims and there's where most gay bashings occur.%0D
I'm fron Norway's second largest city. It's in the bible belt and like I said, full of christian freaks. There's more churches here than I can count. We have one gay bar in this city and I just read in the local newspaper about a guy being beaten when walking home from the gay bar because he was gay.%0D
Maybe you don't want to realize how it is in Norway, maybe you had a different experience, fine. All I'm saying is that Norway is not the perfect paradise you make it out to be. Yes, we have protection, yes, we can get married. But does it really matter when most people still look at us as freaks, like we should just drop dead, like we don't deserve equal rights? It's not fun living in a society like this. The society is still in the 1950s, it's just that he laws protecting and giving gays equal rights seem to have evolved faster than the actual Norwegian people.
[R64] Your rage is getting the better of you, and you're speaking in extremes.
I didn't say Norway is paradise. What I did say is you describe it as a daily hell with gay people being beaten up at such a frequency it makes the United States paradise in comparison, and intolerance everywhere you go.
If you go back and read my post at R55 (troll-dar me), I actually AGREED with you about Scandinavia being so perfect -- that there are thugs and Christians and there is a lot of official intolerance, layered on top of prejudice and marginalization.
But my mother is part Norwegian, so we spend time in Oslo with relatives, one a gay cousin who lives there, another who lives in Bergen, where I've visited once or twice, and neither of my gay cousins tell me these horror stories of gay people being brutalized at an alarming rate that you suggest and how they face intolerance every day.
What I take issue with - as a Swede living in the U.S. - is your claim that Norway is so much worse than living here. New York and a few cities are amazing places to be, but even they are not free of hate crimes, and I assure you in MOST of the U.S., there is NO legal protection for being gay, much less equality, which you have in Norway.
The question is one of relative acceptance. And the U.S. as a whole is NOT more accepting than Norway, and neither is Sweden the progressive paradise you seem to think it is.
I understand you're angry - REALLY angry - but NO ONE has said Norway is perfect and paradise. You are saying it. You seem like you're in a hostile environment and it's affecting you.
If you do come to the U.S., don't expect to find it to be so much better than the Norway you live in, unless you can escape to a gay enclave in one of the major cities. The U.S. is exactly as diverse and imperfect as you describe Norway to be, WITHOUT the legal protection you have in Norway.
That should have read, I agreed with you about Scandinavia not being so perfect. I still screw up when I move the not around, but other than that error I never said Norway was a perfect paradise, and I don''t think anyone else did.
Thanks for sharing R37,R39.%0D\
I guess what I heard about the Philippines wasn''t based in fact. I''m really loving this thread, it''s very informative.
I''m not hearing rage from R64, just honest sadness. The anger I''m detecting comes from the people who don''t like their fantasies being wrecked by a reality check.
I didn''t know that marriage was so commonplace for gays or straights in Scandanavia.
It has to be Iceland, the only nation with a lesbian prime minister (or any openly gay head of state, for that matter). Of course, their language is completely incomprehensible and many of them believe in elves, but we can forgive them for that.
Watching the Swedish movie "Patrik 1.5," which I loved, I was surprised when the neighborhood kids started yelling anti-gay slurs at the gay men. This reminded me of the US: a place where most gay couples can move into a neighborhood and the adults are OK with it, but the kids reflect the stupid homophobia which underlies the more polite society of the adults. I''d thought northern Europe & Scandinavia had evolved beyond this point. %0D\
This reminds me of the situation for blacks in America. Civil rights laws for blacks were passed in the 1960''s, but it is taking us decades AFTER the laws were passed to whittle away at the racism that was ingrained in our society. "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." -Let''s hope that is true.
The article linked below calls the Philippines the most gay-friendly country in Asia, but it''s an acceptance that does not extend to women. And it has odd expectations for gay men, too, who are expected to have sterotypical careers and be semi-closeted at home. %0D\
Whatever happened to that drag queen that had the most popular TV show in Pakistan?%0D\
I heard that there is a part of Indonesia that is as open for gays as San Francisco. Anyone heard of it?
[quote]Watching the Swedish movie "Patrik 1.5," which I loved, I was surprised when the neighborhood kids started yelling anti-gay slurs at the gay men. This reminded me of the US: a place where most gay couples can move into a neighborhood and the adults are OK with it, but the kids reflect the stupid homophobia which underlies the more polite society of the adults. I''d thought northern Europe & Scandinavia had evolved beyond this point. %0D\
Sweden has, Norway hasn''t.
The Netherlands & Germany are winning the poll, followed by Sweden & Denmark.
I wonder what the most welcoming CITY is?%0D\
New York? San Francisco? Berlin? Paris? Amsterdam? Stockholm? Helsinki? Hamburg? Barcelona? Madrid? Washington DC? Los Angeles? Seattle? Vancouver? Montreal? Toronto? Chicago? Sydney? Melbourne? Minneapolis? Atlanta? London? Edinburgh? Manchester? Rotterdam? Boston? Portland? Houston?
R76 Thank you, Captain Obvious\
R77 Okay, okay--we get it! We know what cities are.
No. Most people don''t know what cities are.
It''s Spain. y''all.
Spain, Spain.....Spain. Spain''s acceptance of gayness in skin-deep. Everyone pretends to be superforward-thinking and they''re just as bigotted and homophobic as everyone else.%0D\
My guess is: the moon could be gay-friendly, I predict many of us will become astronauts in the near future.
If "skin deep" means no violence, no discrimination, and equality under the law, then I will take skin deep for now. I don''t need for everyone to "really, deep down" love and embrace gays as long as they TREAT gays with equality. Acceptance comes with time and with evolving young minds. In the here and now the goal is equal treatment, and I think Spain has progressed much further along that road than the U.S.
Funny, R83, do you live in Spain? How long have you lived in the country for?
R40, I think the Norwegian that loves to sing Norway''s praises is actually the same as the one that bashes it at r36.\
What''s the Dansk Folkeparti position on gay marriage?
The Netherlands is leading our poll for most gay-friendly country. I know Chris Crain & his boyfriend were attacked by Moslem thugs there, but overall I think it is the best. Everyplace has some homophobes... even San Francisco. Probably even West Hollywood.
New York City is where all the homosexuals flee to, even from other countries cities. 30 years ago it was San Francisco.
Aren''t the Netherlands and Denmark just two different names for the same country, like Britain and England?
No, R88 get you atlas out before you make a fool yourself again.
The United States of America is the country whose legal and social circumstances regarding homosexuality most closely reflect the private feelings of its citizens. We are also trying the hardest in open view to everyone, warts and all, to "make things right."%0D\
Interesting that we are not even on the list.
Iceland. My partner and and I drove around the entire country a couple of years ago and even in the rat''s ass villages that had hardly seen the civilization until maybe some 30 years ago, people were extremely welcoming and friendly. Apparently, one village''s biggest claim to fame is that one of their own won the title of Mr Gay Iceland so they threw a parade for him when he returned home from Reykjavik.
R90. No... Way.... does the USA belong on that list. \
1. US Evangelicals have been financing and pushing for the institution of death sentences for Gays in Africa. (World Vision, being the biggest group of US Evangelicals in Africa)\
2. James Dobson founder "Focus on the Family" in Colorado Springs, raises over $150 million every year to fight Gays with, in 11 different countries, including Ottawa, Canada, since Evangelical PM Stephen Harper got elected in 2006, hoping to reverse Gay rights outside of the USA. American money overturning Gay equality in Canada.\
3. The people of California voted to take away equal right for Gays. Imagine the population voting to re-instate slavery in the 19th century, after it was ruled illegal.\
4. Nashville, Tenn just voted to prohibit the use of the word "Gay".\
Next to Saudi Arabia and Iran, the USA looks good. That I will give you. But next to the civilized world, it is the United Hates of America.\
Wow are you out of touch with reality.....
I was going to say Israel too. Perhaps not the best but it should be on the list.
R91, you forgot the most important point about Iceland: first country in the world with an elected out gay government leader, in this case a lesbian (I hope that''s not why you forgot...). She is also legally married to her partner, so it''s not a case of "it''s ok if you''re gay, just as long as you''re discreet about it." People actually see a positive gay marriage.
Nowehere near Nirvana (although the weather is nice...), but I was surprised at how gay-friendly Cambodia is. The king is gay and pretty much everyone seems to know it and be cool with it; not only were the tourist havens of Phnom Penh and Sieam Reap gay-friendly, but even in smaller towns nobody seemed to have any issues at all with homosexuality. %0D\
I guess Buddhism makes you more tolerant than many other religions.
R90 R92 Just so you folks can see how to make a queasy debate point. 92 said:%0D\
2. James Dobson founder "Focus on the Family" in Colorado Springs, raises over $150 million every year to fight Gays with, in 11 different countries, including Ottawa, Canada, since Evangelical PM Stephen Harper got elected in 2006, hoping to reverse Gay rights outside of the USA. American money overturning Gay equality in Canada.%0D\
Yeah, he raised $150 million. Yeah, he hates gays. Conclusion, he raises $150 million each year to fight homosexuality.%0D\
As for Harper, he hates gays too. He ran. He was elected. Therefore, Stephen Harper was elected to reverse gay equality.%0D\
See how it works?
James Dobson is a closeted gay man himself. Everyone he works with will tell you this. Meet him and it''s obvious.%0D\
Our worst enemies are almost always closet cases.
No one is even close on here. It is URUGUAY! Yes, that''s right. Gay marriage is legal and people are very accepting. You can walk around the beaches anywhere holding hands and it''s totally acceptable. Too much focus on Europe.
I didn''t think Uruguay had gay marriage yet.
Norway, is the best country for gays.
Canada is NOT WELCOMING to Gays any longer. Canada''s new majority Conservative government, elected June 2, 2011, voted at their post-election meeting that marriage in Canada is between a man and a woman only........by a large majority. Plus Toronto, Canada''s largest city, is under control of the anti-gay Mayor, Rob Ford, who is the first Mayor in 16 years to reject Pride.\
These right wing governments have the total support of almost all Canadian media.\
CTV (Canada''s largest TV network)\
The Globe and Mail\
The Toronto SUN\
The National Post\
Canada is no longer that welcoming to Gays, things have CHANGED!
Have lived in NYC, SF, Paris, London, Vancouver and Toronto. On that long list of extremely gay-friendly places, I rank Toronto and Canada the best. I am married here now to my American beau and we are very happy. Just because Harper and Ford are in office does not equate to a reversal of opinions about gay people. It's simply a case of gay rights not be a very important issue here -- the issue is largely settled. I have every political and legal right as anyone else. Canadians voted for Harper because the Liberals imploded as a party.
Gays... not everything is about you.
r103, your post looks like, "I got mine so I do not care about the rest"
RE: Just because Harper and Ford are in office does not equate to a reversal of opinions about gay people"
Well, were they not elected by the majority of people?
This post was about where gays are most welcome. If you do not like this subject,
why post here, hey?
I don't think that's how my post reads, but let me reframe it. Canada is the most gay-friendly country, in my opinion. The election of some more conservative politicians does not reflect a shift to the right on gay issues, but rather the result of local and national political issues that are too tedious to go into (two of the big four political parties here imploded) during the last election. Harper only got the vote of 40% of Canadian voters and many of those come from one single province (Alberta). His election does not reflect the values of the majority of the population. The comment about "Gays not everything is about you" was just trying to point out that the electoral success of these conservatives has nothing to do with an anti-gay agenda. Gay rights is not an issue in this country - it is settled and we won. I wish the same for other countries - there is nothing in my post that implies "I got mine so I do not care about the rest".
And finally, I posted here to say that I think Canada's the best on gay rights. Which, as you point out, is the point of the thread.
In terms of European cities, definitely Berlin.
I don't think you should look for Utopia, look for progress. Not everyone likes gay people and we have to deal with that. I think Northern and Western Europe overall are good places. Canada is awesome. Jamaica can fall into the Carribean.
And finally, I posted here to say that I think Canada's the best on gay rights. Which, as you point out, is the point of the thread....
& "Gays... not everything is about you."
by: Anonymous reply 103
"The comment about "Gays not everything is about you" was just trying to point out that the electoral success of these conservatives has nothing to do with an anti-gay agenda"
Your explanative words do not substanciate the smugness of your comment.
Because gay is unlike any other minority, in that, your birth family is not of that group, and as gayness does not "show" like color or race, gays will always have to watch to see what the real situation is for them as they cannot be taught by their familiy growing up and all places are different.
"Your explanative words do not substanciate the smugness of your comment." R108
Your inability to spell or make solid arguments does not make my post smug.
Canada should be on the list, OP.
I haven't met anyone who actually gives a fuck if you are gay or not.
Any Buddhist country.
[quote]Your inability to spell or make solid arguments does not make my post smug.
You guys are so funny sometimes.
I think it's hilarious we now have an anti-Norway troll.
[quote]Have lived in NYC, SF, Paris, London, Vancouver and Toronto. On that long list of extremely gay-friendly places, I rank Toronto and Canada the best.
Hadn't we all decided to turn Detroit into a gay mecca?
I see it like this:
General acceptance of gays in society, plus equal by the law: The Netherlands, Sweden, UK, Iceland, Spain, Belgium
General acceptance in society (but not counting equality by the law): Germany, Finland, Denmark, France (though this is changing now, gays can soon get married in church).
Equal by the law, but behind in acceptance of gay people: Norway, Canada, South Africa, Argentina, some states in USA
R114, lol.. like the anti-Canada troll is not worse?
I am from Norway, and trust me.. this country is still the most conservative in northern Europe. All our neighbors are more liberal and gay friendly. Yes, gays can get married, but it's only because our socialist government made it happen a few years ago. We have not made any progress in attitudes and acceptance of gay people in society. Most people are against gays as parents, and most priests refuse to perform gay weddings (actually they can't either, because they don't have the liturgy to do it). Also, the new marriage law is full of discrimination. The Church can opt out of performing weddings for gay couples, which they have done. They refuse to even look into the matter. The last church meeting had the majority say no to even CONSIDER a new liturgy. They said no to even begin working on it! So no.. church weddings for gays are out of the question here. This church gets funding from the state, but they are still allowed to discriminate.. ok then. We also have gay adoption in theory, but not in reality. Gays can't adopt, because no country that Norway has agreements with allow gay couples to adopt. So yeah.. adoption is pretty much out of the question. And so is surrogacy, since the government consider surrogacy a crime. All this means that gays are denied children, but lesbians get IVF funded through the state. Yep, fair!
Don't even get me started on the general attitudes and acceptance in society.. we are FAR behind Denmark and Sweden. Most people are against gays being parents, and only slightly above 50 % of the population is for gay marriage here. I read hateful and anti-gay comments online every day. Oslo is another problem.. full of muslims, and the official organization for muslims in Norway supports death penalty for homosexuality. Also, I read about gays being bashed and bullied every single day. There was this huge news story here about a gay guy being lit on fire at a party, and another one about a gay couple being thrown out by a cab because they were gay and the driver was muslim. We also have a Christian fundie who is currently suing the state because of money she got for a free speech award. Yep.. Norway sure is a paradise for gays! Or maybe not.. I live in the bible belt, and trust me.. this is no paradise for gays. The bitch that's suing the state because her marriage is now less worthy, is from my city, yep.. I am so proud! Uhm.. maybe not. Gays are afraid to come out of the closet here in the bible belt. We have many Christians here, and the Christians still have a good hold on this country. It is very much still a Christian nation with Christian values, where "family values" are held high.
Oh yeah and we have 7 gay bars combined in the entire country. The gay scene is fucking TINY and horrible.
Sorry, just my little rant.. and this is coming from a Norwegian. I mean, sure, it could have been worse, but Norway sure as hell is no paradise for gay people either.
Buddhist Bhutan, with its Gross National Happiness, isn't particularly gay-friendly.
England, of course, where the health service actually turns straight men gay!!
OP, someone has to tell you...
WHICH country is the most welcoming to gay people?
I've never found a gay welcoming country. I've traveled the world and they are all pretty much the same. Those cities with large gay populations, Amsterdam, London, NYC, Los Angeles & San Francisco etc all have sections where gays are in control, but all countries I've been to have been less than cordial to arriving mo's.
A good many countries don't even allow out gay tourists to enter their borders.
r120, the rugbies boyfriend looks like J Wellington Wimpy from the American cartoons. He was the guy that was always hungry for a hamburger and would gladly pay for it on Tuesday.
I would say Belgium, I got married to french guy 5 years ago in Brussels and it was easy as pie, nobody bat an eyelash really. Although I moved to Paris a year later because it was so boring, and the marriage does not carry over..you have to get Pacs'd (civil union)in France.
Now I have to deal with a lot more homophobia here than in Belgium. It's also a lot more dificult to tell who is gay or straight,at least in Paris because alot of the queens here act hypermacho.
In my experience: Canada and Spain. (Out of Canada, Spain, the UK, USA, France, Germany, Mexico, Japan, China)
Those were the two countries where I truly felt people didn't care and I felt most comfortable being affectionate with my boyfriend in public and no one gave a shit and was just really cool.
Berlin definitely had a big gay nightlife but I didn't think Germany society as a whole was quite as nonchalant about seeing gay couples as I felt in Spain and Canada.
r126, I agree about Spain.. I have been there, and people couldn't care less about your sexuality. Guys were kissing on the street and holding hands.. Nobody even looked their way. It was totally normal. Granted, this was in Madrid. I'm pretty sure small villages and towns in Spain are still conservative and homophobic though, but yeah.. most of the big cities are very gay friendly. Have no idea about Canada, because I've never been there.
But yeah.. I would suggest a tip to Spain. Beautiful country, great weather, gorgeous architecture and the men are truly drool worthy. There's huge gay scenes in the biggest cities too, many gay bars. I was in Chueca in Madrid, the gay village, and it was amazing.
Which countries will not allow gay tourists to enter, R123 ?
I've been to several of the UK's major cities (London, Manchester, Edinburgh) and never felt any problems. But I also know that urban life and country life are very different.
Now I am seriously considering moving to the UK permanently and living in a smaller town/village in the Midlands or Southeast.
R129, moving to another country is a daunting task, and you need to have a job to make it worth it. Unless you're a doctor, lawyer or something like that, don't count on getting a job in another country.
Lots of Americans say they're moving to another country for better gay rights, and it's good that they ultimately don't do it, no country is the utopia they're looking for. Just move to NYC, Chicago, LA, SF, or any other large city, if you want a general improvement in gay rights.
When you enter Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam from overseas flights, a big sign greets you with the words, "Welcome, gays! Our holes are open and ready for business!"
r129, I wouldn't say there is an urban/country divide when it comes to homophobia in the UK. I've only come across homophobia in major cities like London and Liverpool, but most people are indifferent to gay couples. I find the most intolerant places to be small towns that a dominantly working class or have a large 'chav' presence. Middle-class country/town types either don't give a shit or keep their intolerant opinions to themselves.
I've just moved to the south-west, which is like going back in time. But I've not come across any homophobia.
There used to be a book you could buy in gay bookstores which told travelers which countries had anti gay laws which could land a tourist in Jail or worse.
Does anyone recall the book(s)?
I think many of the Caribbean islands were hostile to gay men who had sex with locals and would throw away the key after lockup.
UK: PM David Cameron seems to be leading now in Europe, personally promoting full equality, if he doesn't choke. The BBC is still behind the times, still giving equal airtime to those who promote bigotry and even advocate murder of gays. Stonewall UK refuses to list the BBC as gay friendly but rarely speaks out against it - not yet asking for a Gay lobby driven pull back of the BBCs licensing fee. They need to do more. ITV (Murdock owned) is actually leading the media on LGBT representation and equality, in the UK.
GERMANY: still has lingering problems left over from the Nazi era. Angela Merkels party is the equivalent to the US Republican party. They do not like gays and work actively to reverse the partial rights Germany passed 10 years ago. Germany is very much an anti-gay nation. See the current Pope, who is German.
FRANCE: Sarkosy promised to pass full equality, but it looks like he is losing re-election now.
ITALY: Is a bastion of anti-gay politicians, much worse than Germany. Much like Saudi Arabia.
So stick to Spain, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands and maybe the UK.
LGBT Violence Danger zones, Poland, Romania, Italy and Bulgaria.
"The BBC's differential treatment of our issues is also obvious in its insistence that when a lesbian and gay spokesperson is interviewed, their opinions have to be "balanced" by those of an anti-gay bigot. The BBC never insists that black people's views are "balanced" by those of racists."
a gay mayoralty candidate in toronto lost the elections bigtime. he was the best actually, but too bad, clean toronto is still homophobic in secret. so no, canada is not that open yet.
our prime minister stephen harper is very very christian. no way.
England has a social/economic divide, called the North-South divide. The "upper" classes tend to live in the Southern divide. Anti-gay discrimination exists in both but it is different.
In the South you are likely to get the rich Haus Fraus who honestly think they are free of homophobia, but fully support broadcasting anti-gay opinions in the media. They won't speak out against it because "everyone has a right to their opinion". Yet criticize them or their opinions personally, they will attack you and toss you out of their social circle. Call it the hypocrisy of privilege.
In the North, if you have friends, they will defend you because everyone has that "thing" people hate about them and yours is being gay. But the "fag" is the guy from where ever, but not here, that happens to be gay. Kind of a perverse take care of the locals support structure.
At Stockholm Pride Parade, all the straights come out to cheer the gays. Dagens Nyheter, the biggest daily paper, ten years ago ran ON ITS EDITORIAL PAGE the cartoonist Rex's work, full frontal. Wow. Tho Tom of Finland is Finnish. So, Scandinavia generally.
Can't see the NY Times doing that.
R120, Daily Mail? Why do you think they call it "FLEET STREET"
Still, whatever doesn't kill you, makes you more beautiful (!?)
R135 Are you serious? Taking the Catholic pope, this effin old man, to judge a country like Germany as a whole? Merkel's party is not anti-gay and most definitely not an equivalent to the Republicans. In fact there is no party in Germany comparable to your Reps. *rolls eyes* Don't know, where you got your funny ideas from, but you should most definitely reconsider your sources.
You do know about our openly gay politicans, right? Volker Beck, Ole van Beust, Klaus Wowereit, and last but not least Guido Westerwelle. To name just a few. Even in Bavaria, by far the most conservative federal state in Germany and very Catholic, the Premier Horst Seehofer had a child out of wedlock. No one really cared, he didn't have to step down.
It's time to finally catch up on how liberal, open and modern Germany became in the last decades. Go, look for another scapegoat.
[quote]Norway, is the best country for gays.
ROFLMFAO.. you got to be kidding me?!?! Norway is a shithole.. most people here hate gays, and the Christian conservatives and the fundies still have a strong hold on this country. There was this bitch who even tried to sue the state because her marriage was now "less worthy" after gays were allowed to get married. I still read hateful comments every day, like "gays are unnatural", "gays are sick", "gays don't deserve to live" etc. I also read about discrimination against LGBT people every day (which is illegal btw). And all of this is EPSECIALLY bad in the bible belt (southern/western Norway), we have many churches and sects here, just as bad as those in USA.. they're very anti-gay. Hell.. our most liberal church, the state church, still refuse to perform weddings for gay couples, and when they won't.. well.. then it's a hopeless case for the other churches, which are all more conservative.
Trust me when I say this.. Norway is no Sweden. Norway is actually the most conservative country in Scandinavia. I live in Norway, and I can say this.. Norway is a shithole. The only reason we even have gay marriage today is because of our centre-left government. Society still don't accept us.
the U.S, and all our laws, courts, and layers, make
us the most gay friendly.
We're number one!!
Firstly R142 you are repeating yourself.
I think being gay can be tough anywhere but there are places that are definitely tougher -Uganda for instance.
When your speaking about clergy sometimes refusing to marry gay couples, you do understand that there are whole countries refusing to allow gays to officially exist,let alone get married and married by clergy ?Seriously to say that and not even realise how lucky your laws are.
Having said all that I will say parts of Australia biased as I am Australian.
When I say parts I mean some of the capital cities ie Melbourne ,Sydney.Australia can be very homophobic and there are places that you just can't afford to be out and proud.Having said that on the whole I would say we are progressive and will become more so.
As we are not included in the survey (cough) I would have to say Canada,Denmark,Germany,Sweden and even parts of the UK.
Germany is worse because it still does not give Gays full equality. England doesn't either, but England didn't round up homosexuals and murder them in concentration camps, unlike Germany.
The fact Germany still doesn't give Gays equality it gives other citizens, after this murderous history, is abhorrent.
Luxembourg is pretty good. Same-sex sexual activity was decriminalised in 1794, with the age of consent equalized at 16 years for both homosexual and heterosexual acts in 1992.
What about Belize?
[quote]When I say parts I mean some of the capital cities ie Melbourne ,Sydney.Australia can be very homophobic and there are places that you just can't afford to be out and proud.
I've always guessed that Australia is homophobic, but is it really that bad even in Melbourne and Sydney? I thought Sydney was supposed to be pro-gay and I was thinking of visiting this year? Maybe I should just forget it if it's as bad as you say.
Judged by weak anti-discrimination laws, yes Australia is just as homophobic as the USA.
Great thread . From what i read australia seems to be a bit better than the USA in-terms of societies acceptance But worse in regards to their laws on equality for gay people . but hey thats what i read and it may be different on the ground .
Currently In Ghana-Africa the most homophobic place on earth.Hoping to migrate to australia later this year .Hey maybe i will have my first boyfriend when i get there .
I like Australia, have been there a few times, even for as long as months at a time and never found it to be a homophobic place. However, my experience was limited to bigger cities and Tasmania. Things might be different in rural areas. One thing I did notice was subtle racism directed largely towards Asians.
R146 And the US gives gays same rights? Everywhere? That is news to me.
Sorry r 149 I did not mean Melbourne and Sydney were overly homophobic.Some parts are,but on the whole they are very liberal. Being gay in Australia can be hard,but I hesitate to say that compared to some countries it is paradise.
There is a lot of fierce debate about gay marriage but there is a lot if equality within the law.Religion has some lingering power,but compared to the US it is just not there.The right wing party is not even that right wing compared to say the fundamentalist Replublicans.There are are certainly pockets of homophobia but by and large I think we can be pretty tolerant.
Saudi Arabia still holds public executions of gays, but then Saudi Arabia is also officially the USAs best friend in the Arab world.....so, you are the company you keep.
When Mitt Romney kicked out gays protesting at his speaking function, the audience yelled USA #1, USA #1.
This tell you a lot about how Americans have been programmed to think, which is also why so many of them, on this thread, wrongly think the USA leads the world in LGBT equality. Understand the social programming behind this falsehood.
[quote]Well, were they not elected by the majority of people?
LOL! No they weren't r104. If you can't grasp that, maybe you shouldn't participate in this discussion.
[quote]Canada's new majority Conservative government, elected June 2, 2011, voted at their post-election meeting that marriage in Canada is between a man and a woman only
Again, no. The PARTY adopted the resolution, not the GOVERNMENT. The government has actually taken a very active role within the Commonwealth in promoting gay rights. The government has also repeatedly stated that the same sex marriage debate is over.
Of course Norway is gay friendly. Whole country looks like an uncut dick. And R40 told us handballing is a national sport.
Cape Town, South Africa! For real...it's so gay and so camp!
Uruguay, New Zealand, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland, Spain, Thailand, Canada, Israel, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Cambodia.
Mexico, believe it or not, is sadly more welcoming to gay men than DUMBFUCK flyover KKKristian USA.
Spain. No doubt about it. I went to Spain, and gay couples openly held hands on the street.. and this wasn't in the gayborhood either. Nobody cared. They're very open and accepting in Spain. I loved my visit to Madrid, and I can't wait to go back. BTW, the men were extremely hot too!
The Netherlands. Hands down. Across all age groups and social strata. Also, family acceptance. Not too much getting "kicked out of the house" by narrow-minded parents, either. Unlike what you call the "flyover states" in America. .. (If i am to believe what I read on DL.)
By the way: The United States of America is the most homophobic country in the western world. Period. I spent 27 years traveling and working abroad. I felt full acceptance wherever I went. It was when I would be on "home leave" and come back that I would feel the vitriolic prejudice all around me. Despite the hype, Americans are very narrow-minded, uptight people. Never gonna change, either. Deal with it.
"Never gonna change, either. Deal with it."
Bitter and boring.
Ireland is actually quite gay-friendly, it's also probably the only country in Europe not infested with Muslim "people".
R15 You seem to be confused about the UK. Gay marriage is legal in Scotland, with the same rights and responsibilities as straight marriage. In what way does that mean there is no gay marriage in the UK?
R88 You probably shouldn't be using the Internet unsupervised.
There is so much ignorance about the world in this thread it's depressing.
Germany certainly is not welcoming.
Not only is gay equal not even supported by any political party, they are still vetoing work place discrimination.
R171 I'm not sure where all the hype about Germany comes from either. You don't hear ANYTHING about their politicians doing anything for gay rights there.
Much of Germany is still living in the 1930s, even though they deny that.
National Socialism would not have happened in any other country, it was a Germany specific thing.
I'm Canadian (although I've lived in the US for many years) and I was shocked when Canada granted gay unions. My experience all over Canada was one of thinly veiled tolerance and outright homophobia. I do recall that Canada was forced into granting gay marriage after the federal government lost a lawsuit filed by gay federal employees who conceded much of their award so long as gay marriage was allowed shortly thereafter.
That hardly sounds like a group of people who came to their senses and more about saving $. Canadians rarely mention it and prefer to present themselves as having been among the first to become enlightened.
I'm surprised to see the Philippines on the list since it's such a Catholic country and has a Muslim minority.
Idiot at r171, have you ever heard of the SPD, the Greens or the Liberal Party? I guess you haven't, because you obviously don't know much about Germany.
R169, when did Scotland get same-sex marriage? R15's post (written in 2011) is out of date on Denmark though.
R175, I think the Philippines are fairly tolerant, just not in a "western" way.
Oh, and by the way r171, "vetoing work place discrimination" is actually a good thing.
Denmark with out a doubt a truly gay friendly nation