- Ahem, dumbshit.
- Obviously I meant besides Manson himself.
- Squeaky Fromme
- Mia Farrow.
- Sorry, I mean, Ruth Gordon.
- Tex, closely followed by Pat.
- What R6 said
- That's a tough call, since all of them were the scum of this earth. %0D
Atkins was certainly the most flamboyantly evil; during her trial she giggled and made faces and talked about killing people like it was the most natural thing in the world. She loved the attention.%0D
Krenwinkle was the most vicious in terms of killing; she stabbed Abigail Folger so ferociously that the knife broke. And she was the one who carved "war" on the stomach of Leno LaBianca; she also stuck a fork in his stomach and a steak knife in his throat. %0D
Tex was equal to Krenwinkle when it came to blood lust. An 18 year old boy saw named the Manson gang approaching Tate's house; his last words were "please don't hurt me, I won't say anything" before Tex pumped four bullets into him. Tex also shot Jay Sebring when Sebring told him to let Sharon sit down (Tex had told the eight months pregnant Tate to lie down on her stomach).%0D
Leslie Van Houten enthusiastically participated in the LaBianca murders. Afterwards, she and the rest of them fixed themselves a snack with food from the refridgerator of the couple they had just butchered. %0D
I don't any one of the Manson family can be singled out as "the worst." They were all as inhuman and monstrous as they come.
- I thought Tex said he stuck the knife in Leno''s neck.%0D\
Not to quibble or anything.
- How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?
- [quote]How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?\
Three. And Tex was sexy trash.
Wise Old Owl
- [quote]she also stuck a fork in his stomach \
She just wanted to see if he was done.
- While I get that the murders were gruesome, I wonder why the case fascinates America so. Is it because a victim was pregnant and beautiful? Is it because of the ''group of killers'' aspect? Is it because it shattered America''s innocence?\
There are many horrible murders out there that we hear about all the time, body parts found in dumpsters, newborns abandoned, the torture and enslavement of people for years, etc. yet none fascinate like the Manson murders.
- The public is fascinated because the victims were almost all Hollywood folk, pretty, minor celebrities and rich and white. Isn''t that how it always is? %0D\
That''s also why some of the killers who in any other case with the exact same circumstances would have been paroled after 20 years. The prison terms are going on 40 years now. This has become political.
- [quote]How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?\
Perhaps you could set and enforce a rigid limitation on these matters for everyone else. We desperately need a hall monitor, and you seem so eager for the position.
- What a ridiculous statement, r15, and completely untrue. If you really think killers in any other case with the exact same circumstances would have been paroled after 20 years, you''re a bigger idiot than you seem.\
Please name a murder case of the savagery of the Manson case in which the killer was paroled after 20 years.
- I think the most fascinating thing about these murders is the mind control cult Manson created. \
It''s scary to think that people followed someone as obviously crazy as Manson, but none of them were overachievers going in.\
From what I''ve read, Manson really understood how to use drugs and sex to break people''s self-will.
- Some of them like Linda Kasabian (who didn''t participate in the murders, and who broke with the group) were brainwashed, but I think others among them just really wanted a leader to bring out the rottenness within them.\
I don''t think Tex or Atkins or Krenwinkle were innocent of what they did. They did it happily and with great relish.
- It''s not just that it was a group of killers. That happens all the time with drug deals gone bad, people "in the game", or something like that. This was a band of psychos who roamed around together torturing and killing ANYONE they felt like.
- Tex Watson and Steve Grogan (who has been on parole since 1985)were the worst, I think. Grogan beheaded Shorty Shea on Manson''s orders and also was arrested at one point for child molestation, I think. %0D\
- I never completely bought Linda''s innocent act. Bugliosi needed a sympathetic cooperator who looked "innocent" to the jury. Rather than question her convenient claims of just being an onlooker he was all too happy to accept them because it suited his purpose. %0D\
Bugliosi didn''t so blindly accept Leslie''s consistent claims that she was reluctant to stab Rosemary and did so only after being repeately urged to do so and after she thought Rosemary was already dead. Leslie was of no use to Bugliosi because she wasn''t ready to break with Charlie yet while Linda had already done so. Thus her equally plausible/implausible [take your pick] explanation for her behavior was disputed while Linda''s was accepted.
- Linda was busted in the 90s as a meth dealer in New Hampshire.%0D\
- Linda Kasabian is from my hometown.%0D\
Should I organize a parade in her honor??
- How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?\
R11, some of us don''t spend ALL OUR TIME on this site and perhaps are unaware of past threads on this (or any other) topic. Sounds to me like it is time for someone to get a life.
- Because the killings represent the end of the 60''s and the zeitgeist turning in on itself into something very dark and cancerous. All the idealism and Dionysian ecstasy was used for the most sinister of purposes. It shook everyone''s faith in the Age of Aquarius and ushered in the emotional bleakness of the 70''s. \
Also many DL posters were kids when it happened, so it made a permanent imprint on our psyches. It was everyone''s worse nightmare come true.
- I agree with you R26. And so many other events contributed to the end of that era. The peace and love of Woodstock became legendary overnight. Almost as quickly, along come Altamont, reputed to be the mirror image, the evil twin that tarnished the summer of love.\
Janis Joplin died.\
Jimi Hendrix died.\
Jim Morrison died.\
The Beatles broke up.\
All this big BOOMER events happened in a short span of a few years. Whether or not they should have been big events doesn''t matter. They were.
- I was in college when this happened. It was pretty shockiong. Remember this was before we had breaking up to the minute news and entertainment reports. Anything we heard we got on the 6 PM newscasts or the newspapers.%0D
Polanski had a big hit the previous summer with ROSEMARY'S BABY. Tate had gotten noticed after her role in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS. Prior to that, she had appeared in Polanski's film THE FEARLESS VAMPIRE KILLERS or: Pardon Me, But Your Teeth are in my Neck. She had posed for Playboy in a pictorial that was shot on the set of that movie.%0D
The murders were high profile due to the horrific nature of the crimes. And after the LoBionco murders the next night, the people of%0D
Los Angeles were freaking out.%0D
Big news for months... and this was before the trial after the Manson family was caught.%0D
And to cash in on it all.. the next spring when the trial was going on 20th Century reissued VALLEY OF THE DOLLS on a double bill.. with PLANET OF THE APES.%0D
What R27 said...And let's not forget, Judy Garland died a few months before the Manson murders...%0D
strange times, the times were a changin'
Famed actress Joanna Pettet.. yes, I was suppose to be there at the Tate home.
- [quote]Also many DL posters were kids when it happened, so it made a permanent imprint on our psyches. It was everyone''s worse nightmare come true.%0D\
- I always found the Manson murders interesting because I think it''s obvious that without Manson''s influence, none of his "followers" would have ever killed anyone.%0D\
What Manson did is reveal the capacity for evil that resides in way too many people. Nazi Germany was interesting for the same reason.
- I think Tex Watson was more of a driving force behind the murders than has been acknowledged. Manson took credit after the fact to retain control of the group (and went out the next night to assert his leadership.)\
1975 interview with Manson girl Sherry Cooper. Scary level of detachment.
- Can''t have a Sharon Tate thread without this...
- I was unworthy of Charlie''s Love.
- The movie Shampoo is actually about Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring, with Goldie Hawn and Warren Beatty as characters based on them.\
The morose vibe during the movie suggests something unfathomable is on the horizon.
- We still deal with these freaks because Boomers control the media and everything that happened in their lifespan was the BIGGEST and the FIRST and the MOST IMPORTANT.
- Diane Sawyer, by far.
- Another Sharon Tate story.
- When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide. Still.
- Joanna Pettet had been there for lunch that day with another friend.%0D\
But it''s a Hollywood parlor game with all the celebs who claimed they were invited that night - and never were. John Phillips, Barbara Parkins, Elke Sommer, Jacqueline Susann, etc. Apparently Tate had only planned on Sebring coming over to swim, and later the foursome went to eat and right back to the house. There''s been a weird pub crawl from the El Coyote restaurant they went to, and then a tour to Cielo Drive that is an offbeat tourist attraction. The house has been torn down though, so people just see the original gate to the new house on the property. %0D\
- I used to find the case interesting, but it proved to be a Datalounge obsession and I no longer have any interest in it because of the repetitiveness.%0D\
It''s like a movie you used to like, but saw one too many times.
- Yeah, this subject usually comes up here for its anniversary.
- The "party" supposedly held at the house that night is one of the big myths of the case. There was no party. But the in competent LAPD spent a lot of time investigating the non-event. %0D\
It''s hilarious how many celebrities claimed to have been invited to the house that night. They all say something like "I was invited to a party there that night, but I couldn''t go because (fill in the blank)" or "at the last minute I decided not to go." Why would they say bullshit like that? For publicity? Why would anyone want to associate themselves with a ghastly murder? It doesn''t make sense to me.
- Thats like asking "How many treads do we need about the Holocost a year". Maybe so people don''t forget. When we have assholes who think the Manson clan are political prisoners and assholes who think the Holocost never happened it''s important to remember.
- 42 Years ago today. RIP Sharon, Jay, Voltek, Abigail, Steven and Baby P.
- There''s a story in Helter Skelter about Manson wanting the Tate crew to kill someone else, who lived in an apartment building at the beach. Kasabian directed them to the wrong apartment, so no one got hurt, but as they were leaving, Sadie took a dump in a stairwell.
The Voice of the Night
- I''ve always wondered about Kasabian..... I think she did more than she let on to. Ever seen her on TV? Very, very weird. Almost like she gets off on the fame. %0D\
Patricia is in the prison not far from my home. I wonder if she even knows what today is.
- This... Right here. Weird. %0D\
The entire part about Vincent having to say Linda is a nice girl. Freaky!
- Almost as many people were "supposed" to be at that house that night as there were "supposed" to be on Buddy Holly''s plane.
- One of the Manson girls admitted, if she had the time, she would have cut Sharon''s baby out.\
These people were despicable. \
Weren''t they all on acid when they committed the murders, weren''t they trying to use that as a defense? That they were unaware of what they were doing because of the acid and whatever other drugs they were on?
- I just watched several interviews and newscasts from 69-75 and they all claim it was the drugs. %0D\
Um, bitches, I''ve done every drug they mentioned in my 20s and I never killed ten people, let alone one. %0D\
Here is the newscast from that morning.
- The interesting character in all of this is Candace Bergen, rumored to be, with Terry Melcher, to be the true targets that night. Melcher was supposed to help Charlie get a recrd deal or something, and welshed.\
Bergen has never said a word about the killings.\
I was a little kid in Hollywood, but I remember the types of people many of the victims (and those who thought they could be victims) were. They really believed they were magical and anointed by Zeitgeist. They were no different from the similar types that followed -- now seen mostly on Wall Street. They wander around in clouds of self-love until a Charlie or something like him appears, and then they run screaming for cover. Next, they force their "plight" on the public as iconic and their self-importance blooms again.
- The Melcher connection is because of the time Manson spent living at Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys'' home. That is how he met Melcher. %0D\
He showed up in March/April looking for Terry and they basically chased him away. He never forgot that and then went back in August to pay them back.
- I grew up in the 70s and the Mansons and the Zodiac killer - those were the true boogiemen of my nightmares. These vicious killers who attacked people without motive. That still makes me shuder. Random acts of complete cruelty for cruelty''s sake.
- And when I say "shuder", I mean shudder.
- None of them were on drugs the nights of the murders. They were on a mission and were prepared to carry it out, and they knew in order to do it they could not be fucked up on drugs.%0D\
It wasn''t that Manson was such a charismatic, dynamic personality with the ability to change average young hippies into crazed killers. Oh no. The Manson family members were fucked up long before they met Charlie. Much is said about how "normal" Tex Watson and Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkle were before they hooked up with Charlie. Tex had been a football star, Leslie was Homecoming Queen, Patricia was active in church. But they all degenerated into druggie, slovenly losers, and that was BEFORE they met him. In "Helter Skelter" Vincent Bugliosi said that all of the Manson family killers had "some inner flaw...apart from Charlie."%0D\
And yes, it does state in Bugliosi''s book that Susan Adkins took a shit on the landing of the building where they had gone to kill somebody.
- "None of them were on drugs the nights of the murders. They were on a mission and were prepared to carry it out, and they knew in order to do it they could not be fucked up on drugs."\
IIRC, in Ed Sanders book "The Family", he said they were on acid. Then again, I read it so long ago.....
- Acid is groovy!
oops wrong murder
- John Waters included a chapter in his shit book "Role Models'' that Leslie van Houten is reformed and should be given parole - of course, she wasn''t\
some crimes are unforgivable and he should be ashamed of himself for defending her
- Here is a pic just days before the murders. The pic is taken by one of the victims!
- R55... There is an interview with Susan from 1975 where she talks about what drugs they claimed to be on that night. Speed, Coke and Acid. %0D\
Not that I believe it, but then again... you don''t really know. Nobody knows but them.
- r58 You''re missing the point. Did you even read Waters'' book? She has long since served out the typical sentence for her crime. She has reformed herself in prison and done all she can to apologize for her crime. If it weren''t for the unrelenting, exploitative media focus on this case, she would have been paroled a long time ago.
- some crimes are unforgivable and he should be ashamed of himself for defending her%0D\
She has been in jail for 40 years for a crimne she committed as a minor. If the criminal justice system is about rehabilitation AND punishment then I don''t think it shameful at all to suggest she should be paroled.%0D\
- [quote]She has long since served out the typical sentence for her crime\
Remind me again what the typical sentence is for someone who participates in the torture-murder of two people?\
[quote]She has been in jail for 40 years for a crimne she committed as a minor.\
She wasn''t a minor. She was two weeks shy of her twentieth birthday.
The Voice of the Night
- [quote]She has been in jail for 40 years for a crimne she committed as a minor.%0D\
Leslie was 19, a few weeks away from being 20. She wasn''t a minor.
- I do not get the folks that say they should be released... Let''s just release Charlie. After all, he didn''t kill anybody that we can prove. :rollseyes: %0D\
The fact is, they were sentenced to the death penalty. They should all be dead. Due to the death penalty being made illegal, it was commuted to life in prison. They have not served their time. If they want out, send them to the electric chair!
- [quote]Thats like asking "How many treads do we need about the Holocost a year"\
Yes, the cost of the holo is increasing all the time.
- Puh-leeeze. Do you clowns actually think that one can really be brainwashed? What a bunch of maroons.
- dayuuum - check out Sebring''s bulge at r59''s link. You basically see his cock.
- Thank you, R68. I didn''t want to to say it first. Sebring has a nice cock...Er, HAD a nice cock. What a waste.
- r51 stopped short of saying the victims deserved what they got but you can tell it''s killing him/her.\
I can''t decide if you''re scary or just contemptible but do seek professional help, r51.
- Didn''t I read that the reason Linda was driving the car was because she was the only one who had a valid driver''s license? \
Tex fled to his hometown in Texas after the murders and they were very reluctant to extradite him back to California for trial. His family was very influential in his town and he was considered just a good ole boy there. He made the most of his incarceration, married, had several children and I believe, he has become some sort of preacher while in prison. He was a favorite sexual partner of the girls during their orgies.
- I should have read his Wiki entry before posting. He is now divorced. Not a preacher, but has convinced himself that God has forgiven him for his part in the murders.
- Tex was very hot
- I don''t care how rehabilitated they''ve become or how sorry they claim they are, nothing can make up for what they did. None of them should ever walk free again. The fact that they have been allowed to get married and have sex with their spouses while in prison is outrageous.
- Yes, r68. I know it''s hard to comprehend, but, yes, we had cocks back then too.
- they all should have been executed.
- John Waters is a fool and a jackass for lionizing van Houten. I''m glad she''s a model prisoner. She can do a lot of good in prison. The idea that other people have gone free for crimes like hers is ridiculous. Most murders are crimes of passion in the heat of the moment. In her case, she was one of a bunch of freaks who plotted murders for fun, carried them out after torturing their victims, and then mocked everyone who tried to hold a mirror up to them to show what they''d done.\
Waters was drawn to her because she was glamorous and did evil things. He''s a vapid idiot.
- Tex watson is more evil than Manson. krenwinkle was the most savage of the girls
- Krenwinkle looks like a man.
- I always thought Susan Atkins was the most savage.
- What is interesting is that Manson was quite well known to the LA music scene. Neil Young knew him--as did others. He was not someone who was unknown. %0D\
Correct me if I am wrong--the Melcher theory was disporven years ago, iirc. I thought that Manson targeted the Tate group to take attention away from a killing he was involved in. The idea was that the LAPD would think that the killings had a racial motive. He chose the Tate place since he knew it.%0D\
I could be wrong. I remember reading this so long ago.
- savage=flyover adjective du hour.
- [quote]Kristin Svege did divorce her husband, Charles, but it wasn''t because she met another man, it was because of some of his actions in prison that wasn''t becoming of someone who claimed to be what ''he'' claimed to be. (Whether Charles is truly walking with God at this time is between him and God, details of what he did I won''t mention out of respect for his ministry. Suffice it to say her reasons were well grounded in the word) Her reasons were those that the Bible would say were grounds for divorce. It wasn''t an easy decision for her and she struggled with it for several years. She realized the impact it would be on the children and that made it difficult. At the same time she could not ignore the immorality and claim to be living her life in honesty as if everything was as it should be. %0D\
I wonder what tex did that was so immoral? I mean, I would have thought murdering people was the first clue.
- Has anyone been to the spahn ranch location in chatsworth? talk about creepy!!!
- It is believe that there are bodies buried on the Spahn ranch that have yet to be discovered.
- Jay Sebring (real name: Thomas Kummer) explains it all for you!
- Patricia Krenwinkle looks just like Elaine Stritch.
- If anybody wants to watch a good lil'' documentary about it. %0D\
I went on this guys tour. He does morbid little tours in LA. I''ve gone on a few. The Helter Skelter one was fascinating. The gentlemen in the video used to date Graham Norton.
- There is also a Ghost Hunters episode on the house where Sharon was killed with the ghost recordings of their voices, it''s chilling.
- r81, the alternate theory is this was a drug hit, pure and simple.\
Manson and his followers were used by higher level traffickers because they were not traceable to them. Middle-class society was afraid of and despised ''hippies''. \
The LaBianca murders were the same. In that case, I think it was the wife with the habit. The husband was also rumoured to have shady business connections. \
BTW, that was also the reason Manson was known on the fringes of Hollywood.\
Biker gangs with satanic elements (some authors claim the Process was involved) were the traffickers.
- Julie. She was such a cunt.
- r91 there is some truth to that, but the Manson family were heavily into santanism
- R89- I''ve seen that episode. Scared the shit out of me. %0D\
R91- Rosemary LaBianca had a side business dealing drugs. Rumor is that Volchek sold drugs too with Mama Cass'' boyfriend. Additionally, Rosemary LaBianca sold wigs and so did Sebring. %0D\
There are all sorts of weird connections between all of them... Rosemary LaBianca''s boyfriend hung with Manson, etc. %0D\
I don''t think we''ll ever know the entire story or everything as to why these people were targeted.
The only frightening thing about that episode is the fugly, hulking monstrosity the property owner built over the original home (which was a charming cottage-type house from the silent-film era).
- Why wouldn''t have that come out in the trial r94? Or did it? \
It puts a different spin on it if it was all about drug deals gone bad, instead of random murders and depravity.
- The house in the Ghost Hunters house isn''t actually the house that replaced the Sharon Tate House, but a new one that was built a couple of houses down on Cielo Drive.\
However, the Tate House replacement IS a monstrosity that no one still wants - I believe it''s used as some kind of conference center now.\
The tree on the far left is the only part of the original property that''s still there.
- So what did those ghost hunters hear there?
Didn''t see the show
Omg, that''s even worse. What''s wrong with people?
- Well they didn''t top the atrocities committed 42 years ago at Cielo Drive but they sure tried with the new "house" they built on it.
- I would haunt that "conference center" too knowing that they had torn down my home for that thing.
- My guess is that they wanted to get as far away from the Tate house design as possible (which they did) - so no cottage design, or California ranch design, and they made it big and seemingly impervious to intruders. \
But it didn''t help. They still couldn''t sell it. I mean, even if it were beautiful, would you want to live on that lot?
- I have a piece of the original fireplace from the prior house. I always wonder if there is any Sharon DNA on it.
- Spahn Ranch burned down in a wildfire in 1970.
Barker Ranch, where the Family hid out in the desert was searched in 2008 for additional bodies, Both Sharon's surviving sister Debra Tate and former Manon follower Catherine Gypsy Share believed that there were additional bodies there, but the search was kind of hamstrung by both the Inyo County Sheriff, who didn't want them there, and since parts of the Ranch are now part of Death Valley National Park, the National Park police drove them off when they appeared to find Native American artifacts there.
In 2009, the ranch house, included the cabinet Charlie tried to hide from the cops in, burned to the ground.
All the interviews that I've seen, especially the History Channel's 40th anniversary special with interviews with Bugliosi, Debra Tate, Linda, and Gypsy, I came away thinking three things: I do believe Linda was telling the truth, because if she wasn't she's a much better actor that people give her credit for, Gypsy is the most penitent, and while I'm not much for Jesus, it's clear her conversion to Christianity helped her a lot (she even looked better), and while I don't blame Debra Tate for the way she feels, she will go to her grave hating each and every Family member.
There was one moving part where Linda confessed she still didn't understand why she wasn't punished too, and Debra viciously said the same thing.
The Voice of the Night
- I sent Debra a rather harsh email. %0D\
She is supposedly a victim''s rights advocate, but..... There she was on national television saying Roman Polanski didn''t do anything wrong because sex with the 13 year old was consensual. %0D\
Um, Pardon? %0D\
A 13 year old cannot make that decision. Does this mean her sister''s murder was consensual too because she did as her attackers asked and was killed? No. She can''t have it both ways, she needs to stop being a hypocrite.
- A tot mom''s life cut tragically short, before she even had the baby. She was white and she was a victim. That''s all I need to get me through 4 shows....
Nancy Grace, defrizzing my helmut from a quick jaunt to Aruba
- She was butchered and thrown away like a piece of trash! Triple bagged like garbage!
The Devil Dances Every Night On My Show!
- I could swear that I read somewhere that the LoBianco killings were a "mistake." Charlie went to the wrong house. He was looking for the house next door, but he drove up the wrong driveway. The house next to the LoBianco''s was a drug house and Charlie felt that he had been burned by the people who were renting it and went there to exact some kind of revenge.\
Once he realized his mistake, it was too late and the murders took place anyway.\
It might be in "Helter Skelter"...I''ll have to try to find the book and check it out.
- Paraphrasing from something Paul McCartney said once, Leslie Van Houten should remain behind bars for as long as Rosemary and Leno LaBianca remain dead.
The Voice of the Night
- Doris Tate confronted Tex watson at his parole hearing I will post the youtube vid. She rocked!
- here is Doris giving Tex a piece of her mind
- Wow. Doris Tate was a hell of a woman.\
I remember reading that, in the days before metal detectors became just part courthouse life, the prosecutors and the bailiffs were afraid that Paul Tate was going to walk into the courtroom and start shooting.\
I always find it....darkly amusing, I guess, that the bailiff in the Manson trial was Rusty Burrell, who was Judge Wapner''s bailiff on The People''s Court.\
As I recall, it was due to Doris Tate''s advocacy that the California Penal System changed its rules and forbade conjugal visits for convicted murders.
The Voice of the Night
- yeah Doris also believed that sharon was not the intended target. someone tipped off manson or tex that she was not at home due to her car being in the shop
- But then who would have been the target? Terry Melcher had moved out, and Manson knew that. Rudi Altobelli was out of the country.
The Voice of the Night
- Why didn''t Larry Tate ask Darren Stevens if his wife could resurrect Sharon?
- [quote] Paraphrasing from something Paul McCartney said once, Leslie Van Houten should remain behind bars for as long as Rosemary and Leno LaBianca remain dead\
Paul McCartney never said any such thing. \
The only comments he has made regarding the killings is to scoff at the idea that there were coded messages in Beatles songs about drugs and/or racial murders. He said Helter Skelter is about a children''s slide in a park. He has denied that Beatle music had anything to do with Manson''s insane interpretations, thus the music was not to blame for the murders. \
It was someone at a parole hearing for Manson family members who said they should be incarcerated for as long as the victims remain dead.
- He was talking about Mark David Chapman, R116.
The Voice of the Night
- Interesting side note -- everyone who discovered the LaBiancas had had run-ins with the police.
Joe Doegan, the fianc%C3%A9 of Rosemary LaBianca's daughter Suzan Struthers, had been arrested for drug possession. Suzan Stuthers had been arrested and detained on suspicion of stealing and using someone else's credit card (while in the company of fianc%C3%A9 Joe Dorgan) but charges were dropped when Leno stepped in and made restitution to the victim.
Frank Struthers, Rosemary's 15 year old son, had been arrested while riding as a passenger in a stolen vehicle.
Rosemary LaBianca disapproved of Joe Dorgan and fought with her daughter about her relationship with him.
Police investigated several friends of Frank Struthers who had made statements of animosity towards the LaBiancas. Two of those friends were exonerated because they were incarcerated in juvenile hall at the time of the murders. Another two were exonerated after their fingerprints were discounted from the crime scene.
Kind of weird how Rosemary's kids, although quite well-off by the standards of the day, were in trouble with the law and hung out with lawbreakers.
- [quote]Kind of weird how Rosemary''s kids, although quite well-off by the standards of the day, were in trouble with the law and hung out with lawbreakers.\
I don''t see how that''s unusual at all, actually.
- There is a lot of misiinformation in this thread, but some good stuff as well. %0D\
I''ve been fascinated with this story for a while. I''ve no clue why. I wasn''t born yet, I didn''t find Miss Sharon a good actress, etc. Maybe it''s because I''ve lived in SoCal my entire life and it''s part of our history. I''m also a tad bit morbid, but a lot of us probably are just because death and such is quite an unknown..... the same reason somebody invented the idea of heaven. %0D\
My other favorite murder to read about that is still not really solved is The Wonderland Murders. Probably because I''ve ran with people just like the folks involved in that one... drug dealers, drug users, a porn star (John Holmes in this case), etc. It''s such a common LA thing, yet.... it''s supposedly the bloodiest crime the LAPD ever dealt with. They don''t call if "four on the floor" for nothing.
- Charles was definitely the worse! Charles Tex Watson that is, who did all the killing by his own admission! Manson wasn't at any crime scene and isn't responsible for anyone's death.
If people want to debate a fairy tale go ahead but if you want to intelligently debate the facts, try using something other than Helter Skelter as a reference.
- The Candy Mossler trial was another headline-maker, although it's mostly forgotten today.
- R120 The Wonderland murders was the first time the police used videotape to catalog a crime scene.
My ex and I drove by there a few years ago. She was from out of town, so I took her to all the Hollywood crime scenes, i,e., Tate, Bugsy, Melendez, etc.
- I read yet another weird theory that the LAPD lagged on doing anything about the Manson family at Spahn Ranch due to drug dispersement, or even using the family as a 'booby trap' for the Age of Aquarius kids.
Fear of and respect for 'authority' was at an all-time low, and the powers that be assumed those Manson kids would soon be fucking up and fucking up big. The theory goes the cops assumed they would be killing other hippies, not famous, rich public figures.
Considering everybody's synchronistic involvement with black magic/Satanism (Sammy, say it isn't so!) in Los Angeles at the time, I sometimes consider 'unseen forces' as a guiding factor.
- [quote]Tex was very hot
This reminds me of an old joke:
Two gay guys are standing on a bridge over a river.
First guy: "Look down there, that guy, he's DROWNING?
Second guy: "Is he hot?"
- anyone ever been to the location of spahn?
- Tex and Bruce dAVIS WERE way more evil than manson
- Ever see this chick Emily Procter on CSI Miami? She looks so much like Sharon Tate.
- Of the three female co-defendants, Patricia Krenwinkel was definitely the worst. Susan Atkins was all talk, no action. People remember Susan's grand jury testimony where she confessed to stabbing Sharon Tate, although in reality, it was Tex Watson who did. Patricia Krenwinkel benefited from Atkins taking all of the attention, because it was she who was the most vicious and most involved in the violence. She butchered poor Abigail Folger, helped stab Rosemary Labianca, and mutilated poor Leno Labianca with a dinner fork. Charles Manson was the closest to her of all the women, and she stayed loyal to him for years and years.
The Manson murders were all about drugs, drugs, drugs.
- Also, it's ironic that people remember the Manson murders as the "Charles Manson and Susan Atkins" crimes, when in reality, they were the Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel murders.
- Yep also a satanic connection too. Sharon and Steve parent were not the targets, jay, abigail and voytek were
- So R131, I know Jay was seen at a Satanic style orgy by Sammy, but how were Abigail and Voytek allegedly involved in it?
- gibby and voytek were heavily involved with drugs
- bruce davis is the zodiac killer
- How, R133? I mean selling or heavy use?
- R131 is correct. Jay, Voytek and to a lesser extent, Abigail, were the true targets of the Cielo Drive butchery. All of them were extensively into using drugs, and both Jay and Voytek were starting to deal (huge shipments of MDMA, pot, etc.).
Poor little Steven Parent. Truly at the wrong place at the wrong time. 18 year old gay boy just trying to hook up with the Cielo Drive houseboy (William Garretson) . . . oops, I mean sell him a "clock radio" at 11:40 p.m. I've always felt the worst for him.
- Thanks for this data. So they were dealing drugs and the Process church or Charlie himself wanted to settle a score after a bad deal or something?
I read when Charlie and the girls stayed at Dennis Wilson's house, the bills for the grocery deliveries had grown extremely high and he abandoned the house to them.
They sound pretty gross. I think the beauties showed up for the trial.
- R134, I'm not sure I believe that Bruce Davis is the Zodiac killer, but there are scary, undeniable links between the Manson Murders, the Zodiac, the Process Church of Final Judgment, satanism and [later on] the Son of Sam.
Manson himself quiets down whenever the Process Church has been mentioned to him.
It is as if the gates of hell had opened up in California in '68, '69.
- Were these organized rituals or just crazy shit happening at once?
I try to think of The Source Family as the antidote to the Process/Manson Family.
- r136 and sharon tate!
- R139, my theory is that they were organized (orders given). Read the "Ultimate Evil" by Terry Maury. It is mostly about the Son of Sam murders (and how David Berkowitz did NOT act alone), but it definitely explores connections between the Manson Murders/Zodiac and the SUPER creepy murder of Arlis Perry in a Stanford University chapel.
Lots of satanism/occult activity in those 60's/70's years. In fact, in Los Angeles (the occult capital of the Americas) there still is. There are areas of the Angeles forest and other canyons that I will simply dare not go to.
- Charles Manson has a couple of kids. One of whom lived near my small town in Wisconsin. This is also where Phil Hartman's kids went to live after their mother killed their father. Jeffrey Dahmer's mom also lived in the area. Chippewa Falls/Eau Claire.
- Weird r142
- [quote]Charles Manson has a couple of kids. One of whom lived near my small town in Wisconsin.
Was that Pooh Bear, the son he had with Mary Brunner?
The Voice of the Night
- yes and by all accounts he was a really nice guy. He seems pretty together here.
- Oh and that's Harvey Levin interviewing him. Classy as always.
- I had read that Sharon Tate's home was haunted before their tragic murders, and that she would walk down her stairs and see ghosts in the living room.
She spoke of these hauntings to a friend, and felt as if they were some sort for forewarning.
- r147, you are almost correct, except it was Jay Sebring's home she saw ghosts and herself dead at the end of the stairs
the danger is mostly in gangs who roam the canyons making drug deals, hiding out, spraying graffiti, and other nefarious activities.
The gangs are enough to scare any weirdo satan worshippers out of their wits. And there are helicopter patrols over the canyons.
It's always interesting to hear of pot being grown within the state parks. How they get away with it is amazing.
I think the biggest problem area is within the San Gabriel mountains.
- I just watched the video with Mrs. Tate, which was great. Thanks for the link.
I would like to speak to those who are interested as to why this particular case holds - and continues to hold - such interest (and I don't believe this is true only for the DL community).
Yes, many of us who post and write here were children at that time, and it WAS the worst nightmare to consider, so to repeat a comment already mentioned, I think there is an element of this being forever marked within our brains.
Yes, the whole Hollywood connection.
Yes, the beautiful Sharon Tate who was pregnant and the back and forth comments about the gruesome death and whether or not her baby was cut out (it wasn't, but what a great thing for a kid to wonder about).
But then there is the fact that Charles Manson was the first person in California (perhaps in the US) who was ever convicted for a murder that he was actually even present at - he didn't even physically show up at the Polanski/Tate residence.
And my final point regarding the interest - I think the book that Vincent Bugliosi wrote: "Helter Skelter" (along with - obviously - "In Cold Blood" by Truman Capote)is one of the great all time true crime books. I had the opportunity to hear him talk some years after the OJ trial, and he was absolutely fascinating. He was very honest in his disdain for the shoddy work/antics the DA did in handling OJ's case, and his work ethic - and his determination to find justice was very moving. That determination and personal interest is very apparent throughout the book, and I believe the book still holds up today. It's a fascinating story.
As for the worst of the killers: my vote goes to Susan Atkins, who told Sharon Tate she didn't have any mercy for her (as she begged for her life and the life of her unborn son) and who orgasmed at her death. They were all sadistic freaked out killers, but I think her actions were particularly gruesome.
- Squeaky was the worst. Can you imagine MISSING Ford?
- They interviewed Charles Manson about a couple of years ago. He said that he was at party once ,and Jane Fonda, Peter Sellers, and Yul Brynner came in carrying a camera asking if anyone wanted to join Peter and Yul to screw Jane on camera.
- WHET Zezozose Zadrack Glutz?
The Voice of the Night
- The Process Church or whatever they were called had very disturbing graphics. Nothing 'faux' or 'hipster' about it. I'm not exactly sure what Charlie had to do with them.
Los Angeles has always had witchy underpinnings.
- R55. it almost sounds as if Mittens would fit in that crowd.
And a judge Wapner connection?!
- Impeccable face
- It's unfair to put Charles Manson in jail when he didn't kill anyone.
- R157....are you serious?
- "R157, are you serious?"
Probably not. There are a lot of dumb trolls who say stuff like that just to get a rise out of people. There are several of them on this thread.
- R159 yes, i see...
What a pity, though.
- It's incredible that a woman killed Sharon Tate.
That thought chills my heart, i can't understand it.
- Sharon was not even a bitch. She wasn't stuck up with people. She just got murdered because she was famous and breathtakingly beautiful.
- Some people's fate is so unpredictable
- My dear DataLoungers, you want to know what people who knew Sharon Tate thought of her?
- Well why is he in jail? Who did he kill? If I tell you to kill someone and you're stupid enough to do it, why should I go to jail. Maybe he was joking.
He didn't actually kill anyone. How many other people were put on death row without killing anyone? Name them dumb asses, name them.
- "He didn't actually kill anyone. How many other people were put on death row without killing anyone? Name them dumb asses, name them."
By your reasoning Hitler (I presume you've heard of him? Perhaps not.) also "didn't actually kill anyone." So I assume you also regard him as not guilty of any crime.
You are a retard. Case closed.
- "Jay, Voytek and to a lesser extent, Abigail, were the true targets of the Cielo Drive butchery. All of them were extensively into using drugs, and both Jay and Voytek were starting to deal (huge shipments of MDMA, pot, etc.).
Poor little Steven Parent. Truly at the wrong place at the wrong time. 18 year old gay boy just trying to hook up with the Cielo Drive houseboy (William Garretson) . . . oops, I mean sell him a "clock radio" at 11:40 p.m. I've always felt the worst for him."
You are such an insane retarded asshole. It's been documented many times that Frykowski and Sebring simply recreational drug users. Frykowski was just a dumb clod who liked to get high a lot; Sebring did drugs but to no great extent. You must also believe in the mythical "Jamaican hip to voodoo" who supposedly slaughtered everyone in the house "during a ritual mock execution that got out of hand during the glare of hallucinogens." Yeah, I'm sure you believe that, you dumbass.
As for Steven Parent...well, he worked two jobs. One of them was part-time, EVENINGS, as a salesman for a stereo shop. He didn't stop by Garretson's place for a quickie butt-fuck; he went there to sell a piece of electronic equipment. "Poor little Steven Parent", indeed. Slandered by a fucktard douchebag on a gossip site.
- I have no idea why some insane nutjob is saying that Steven Parent was gay and had a sex hookup with William Garretson. This is what William Garretson had to say about the night Stephen Parent came over:
"About a quarter of twelve or something like that, Steve came up and, you know, he brought his radio with him. He had a radio, clock radio; and I didn't expect him or anything, and he asked me how I'd been and everything..."
Parent plugged in the radio, to demonstrate how it worked, but Parent wasn't interested.
Then "I gave him a beer...and he drank it and then he called somebody, somebody on Santa Monica and Doheny, and he said that he would be going there, and so then he left, and, you know, that's when...that's the last time I saw him."
The above info is from the polygraph examination Garretson went under after the murders. It was determined he was telling the truth.
- Sharon Tate was so beautiful and sensual
- Natural beautiful
- Sharon Tate with Mia Farrow
- During the sentencing phase of the trial, Susan Atkins testified that she stabbed Tate. She stated that she had stabbed Tate because she was "sick of listening to her, pleading and begging, begging and pleading".
The word "PIG" was written in Tate's blood on the door. Prosecutors said Atkins did that and also tasted the actress's blood.
"She was the scariest of the Manson girls," said Stephen Kay, a former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who helped prosecute the case and argued against Atkins' release at her parole hearings. "She was very violent."
- Sharon Tate was one of the most beautiful and sexy actresses ever.
- She should be remembered as a great great beauty and not as a victim of a wicked murder.
- No more wicked thoughts! Sharon was alive and most promising once and incredibly, incredibly beautiful, that's what matters and a murder cannot annihilate what existed once. There are memories of her before that murder took place.
- Atkins was incredibly unattractive.
- Okay, seriously, Sharon Tate troll don't you think you've spammed us with plenty of ST pics?
- You don't like them R177?
- Hon, I quit looking a long time ago. I think you have some serious fangurl issues. If she were still alive I would worry about you stalking her.
- Stop quitting...
Open your eyes to everything.
Flow with them
- No thanks ST troll.
- Open yourself to the past, drag it to your present and have wild and positive dreams for the future!
- She was so beautiful and those photos have a very timeless look.
- Entrancing Sharon Tate
- Totally natural in the photo below
- She was eight and a half months pregnant when she was killed
- Do any of you out their ever had any ghostly experiences?
- Don't see the photo below if you are not ready to see this beauty murdered, dead. It's an appalling photo, a contrast to the previous ones.
I warned you.
- Why did the AIDS infested homo cross the street?
Everybody on his side already had the AIDS
- I don't believe that a person should be stigmatized because they were murdered. It is shocking when we read about this kind of death and when we see that terrible photo of death, but Sharon Tate lived a part of her life and she was so beautiful and alive before that happened. We must remember her being alive. It's important.
We must resist. Crimes happened, terribly crimes will continue to happen. Keep a safe place in your heart for what once existed and don't be afraid to admit (at least to yourselves) that death is not and should not be the end.
- ST Troll, you're creepy. Leave that poor girl alone.
I'm surprised that there have been all these posts and all this speculation without any mention of Bobby Beausoleil. Supposedly, Bugliosi's theory of the crime was a hodge-podge of Manson ravings cobbled into a "motive" that didn't quite make sense.
Beausoleil hooked up with the Manson crowd, bringing his own bunch of girls. More attractive than Charlie, he also exerted control over "his" girls and shut Manson out. Some of Manson's girls were interested in Bobby, which infuriated Manson.
Beausoleil killed someone (Hinman) over a drug deal gone bad. He was in jail at the time of the Tate-LaBianca murders. Some of what Beausoleil did in the Hinman killing was repeated at the Tate-LaBianca crime scenes. Supposedly, Manson's plan was to take full control of the group and put Beausoleil in debt to him by staging copycat murders to free him. Obviously it didn't work but Beausoleil, who remains in prison doing life for murder, is a fascinating character in the whole Manson saga.
As for the Manson girls, I can't tell them apart and I don't really care. Lock them all up, throw away the keys, and throw away the keys for Charlie, Tex and Bobby while you're at it. Fucking maniacs.
- Beauty transcends death
- There were quite a few people killed by the Manson "family" Tate Troll.
You seem to think only Sharon Tate's death mattered and only she deserves to be remembered. I hope the rest of the murder victims haunt you.
- R193 Sharon was carrying a baby. You are cruel and sarcastic. I didn't imply that only Sharon's death mattered or she only deserves to be remembered. I happen to know some things about her and not about the other victims, that's why i paid this tribute to this beautiful woman. Stop twisting my intentions, please.
- [R168] Whether there was a hot summer midnight fling between William Garretson and Steve Parent will remain a mystery. This would have been shortly before the Manson gang arrived. Garretson in his polygraph exam admits to gay sex with an unidentified man. The property owner Rudi Altobelli, who rented the main house to the Polanskis, moved the unemployed drifter from Ohio from the Sunset Strip into his personal residence, which was the guest house at the back. Garretson was a good looking 19 year old with a nice smooth body. His pics from 1969 are on Images. It all may have been perfectly innocent with Parent trying to sell him a Sony Digimatic clock radio. Remember those with the flip over numbers? After a beer and saying good night his young life came to an end by those creeps, who caught him about to drive away. If he would have left ten minutes earlier he would have been through the gate and drove past the killers hiking up the hill. Fate.
- Oh right, a teenage Steven Parent (who is on record as having "homosexual tendencies" in a juvie report) drove all the way from El Monte to the Hollywood Hills to sell a clock-radio to another 19 year-old boy who also admitted to gay experiences near midnight on a Friday night. Talk about what a naive idiot R168 is.
William Garretson was basically Rudi Altobelli's (the owner of Cielo Drive) kept "houseboy." Mr. Altobelli was definitely an out and proud gay man. Do you also really think Mr. Altobelli let a 19 y/o boy stay in a Hollywood Hills guesthouse for free just to water plants, be a pool-boy and feed the dogs? Naive R168 probably thinks so.
- Julie Bowen is the worst.