I have an Austrian friend who''s 27 years old and in a relationship with a Danish guy, around the same age. They live in Montreal. They are in a closeted relationship and officially present themselves as "roommates", 1950s-style, even though everyone obviously knows they''re a couple. They are out neither to their gay friends (they have a few) nor their straight friends. The Austrian guy grew up in the countryside, and I don''t think he''s even able to discuss his homosexuality. Very strange, for guys in their 20s in 2011. \
I''ve been to Vienna, but I haven''t spent enough time in Austria to really know much about the country. How conservative are the people, and how gay-friendly/unfriendly is it? Is this an anomaly?
I''ve never been, so don''t take my word for much, but I''ve heard that some Austrians are the European equivalent of hillbillies.%0D\
Look at Schwarzenegger, that''s the sort of people he came from.
They [italic]are[/italic] rather talkative there...
and it''s your business how, Mrs. Kravitz?
I''ve never approved of the nation''s treatment of the Von Trapps.
He''s probably terrified that his dad would trap him in the basement while raping him.
Incorrect: How conversative is Austria?%0D\
Correct: How conversive are Austrians?%0D\
Answer: I assume that some Austrians are quite conversive, some are mildly conversive and some are nonconversive.
Vienna is the best conservative place in the world, a perfect place to grow old in, beautiful, slow and somehow perfect. The countryside is hidebound and suspicious of outside influence. Hitler and the NAZI higher-ups came from there for a reason.
A friend''s wife who was born there said it is still very catholic. That would explain it.
It''s charms were encapsulated in the 1930''s travel slogan "polkas, swastikas and waltzes".
Vienna is gorgeous, but uber-conservative. Same thing with the country. Very Catholic, racist, and anti-Semetic. Lovely, but the underpinnings will give you the chills. Weird but true.%0D\
Vienna is mad gay, but it''s all underneath the surface. Like the country at large, very "family" oriented, but lots of closets to pick from. The right-wing guru Hader (sp)was gayer than a bunny with an Easter basket.
Very, very Catholic. I wandered into a restaurant one evening and ordered a meat dish. I had completely forgotten it was Good Friday. The whole restaurant looked at me like I had just shit on the floor, and it got so quiet you could hear a pin drop.\
I always get the feeling that Austria is 20 years behind Germany and a bit out of sync with the rest of the World. Like every Austrian teenager is just now discovering Sinead O''Connor and Paula Abdul. It''s sort of charming in small doses, but it gets old fast.\
They also have a touch of that whole "we used to be an Empire" inferiority complex going on. They''ve always had a love/hate relationship with Germany, but before the wall came down at least they could look East and feel superior to Hungary. Now they really don''t even have that working for them. \
I like Vienna, but I can pass on the small towns.
as I said, a perfect place to be old and out-of-touch, it would be a great place to retire as an old gay - Vienna.
"They live in Montreal."\
Well they shouldn''t have much to worry about then. They''re in one of the most pro-gay cities in North America.
I believe the word you are looking for, R6, is "conversant," not "conversive."
Austrians have a great sense of family values.
Are you redarted?
Agree with R14 and R15.%0D\
I have distant family in Steiermark and they are catholic and conservative. I would never even dream of coming out to them. But you have to say, it''s the same in the catholic areas in Switzerland.
Oh God, of course I meant Styria (in German: Steiermark)
Wow, who knew that Austria was so intolerant? Not me, that''s for sure.%0D\
Oh well, I guess there''s nothing in Austria, that you can''t get in Germany.
Actually, I've been living in Austria for years, and I'd say it's at about the European average in terms of being gay-accepting. It's not the Netherlands, but it's not Poland either.%0D
The conservatism is actually focused more on maintaing traditions and national identity than on social values: something like 1/3 of all children are born out of wedlock, the Catholic church is hemorrhaging members here, a much larger proportion of educated people cohabit rather than marrying vs. the US, and there's an active gay community in Vienna.%0D
So, for example, in the tradition of Viennese balls, there's an actually quite enjoyable gay ball called the Regenbogen (Rainbow) ball where LGBTs go in formal attire -- many in drag -- to ballroom dance. (Which most of the natives can do; there's even an LGBT-owned ballroom dance school.) This ball is held in the most establishment of all ball venues, the former imperial palace. And the hugely popular Austrian version of Dancing with the Stars is featuring an out gay entertainer who will be dancing with a male partner this season.%0D
Of course, like in American flyover land, the countryside is generally way more conservative than the cities, and there are lots of %C3%BCber-conservative areas where I couldn't stand to live, gay or not.
I have yet to meet an Austrian man who isn''t at least bi. That being said, I''ve also never met one who openly identifies as gay.%0D\
They all fit a pattern so far - small dicks, big balls, nice nipples.
Where exactly do the Austrian Navy ships dock?
This has always bothered me
Austria doesn''t have a navy. The Austrian Empire did.
If Austria is so conservative, how did it manage to produce Mozart and Haydn, and why did the establishment-hating (and German-born) Beethoven feel so at home there?%0D\
In the 18th century at least, they were on the cutting edge.
I''ve got relatives living in the Burgenland, a rural area near Vienna...very Catholic, very conservative.\
They altered their last name after WWII, I shudder to think why.
Relative to Poland, Austria is very progressive.
Can anyone recommend some places?
My partner's father lives right across the border in Bavaria, so the attitude's about the same. He's a sophisticated guy. He spent his career as an an engineer and later an executive for Siemens, he lived and traveled all over the world--he's no bumpkin.
Now that he's retired he lives in a tiny village, wears the full Heidi outfits, spends half his day walking his dog, and the other half digging in his little garden in the summer and chopping firewood in the winter. He won't eat strawberries from the store even though he loves strawberries; he waits for the locally grown strawberries to be picked because that makes him "enjoy them more." He's given up his cellphone, his computer, and I guarantee you he doesn't watch 3 hours of television per month. He's turend himself into a modern peasant, and he loves it.
It's like a partner at Goldman Sachs suddenly moved to Newton, Iowa, bought a mobile home and an old pickup truck, started wearing bib overalls, and spent his days drinking coffee with the boys at Dolly's Cafe.
It's very odd, but his attitude is "this is who I am," and that's the attitude you find everywhere in those small villages.
[quote]In the 18th century at least, they were on the cutting edge.\
Vienna was different than "austria" which was simply a part of the Holy Roman Empire then.
The Austrians were the only people saddened to see Hitler defeated. The Austrian Anschluss was more of a welcome home parade.
[quote]Now that he''s retired he lives in a tiny village, wears the full Heidi outfits...\
Your partner''s father wears a dirndl??? Oy vey.
I was in Vienna a few months ago and I hooked up with a guy from a small village in Austria. We were at a sex club and I got the impression that he regularly came to Vienna to get laid, only to return to his less accepting village. \
I also talked to an older gentleman who came to Vienna with his boyfriend when they were teenagers. He said they wanted to be open with their sexuality/relationship.
Austria is gorgeous, but I found it boring and depressing.
In the old days they would have gassed the OP as a useless eater for that typo.
Insbruck is the tackiest tourist trap town this side of Branson. Nice scenery but the town itself is horrid.
lot''s of gay skiing in Tirol -- including Lech and St. Anton.
[quote]The conservatism is actually focused more on maintaining traditions and national identity than on social values: %0D
I agree r24. And the Catholic label also is colored by tradition. It's more like Catholic Lite and is becoming more liberal with laws and social opinions concerning sexual orientation and gender identity. Like Catholic Spain, where same-sex marriage is legal, Austria doesn't follow every dictate from Rome. %0D
Austria has civil unions for same-sex couples so that puts them ahead of most of the U.S. They'll have same-sex marriage long before we gain that right. A 2006 European Union poll surveying up to 30,000 people showed Austrian support for same sex marriage at 49% (higher than the EU average of 41%).%0D
Austria has an anti-discrimination law in the Labor Code, at the federal level since 2004 and six out of the nine federal republics have established anti-discrimination laws within their area of competence that also cover sexual orientation. %0D
The 1993 Police Security Act requires the police to refrain from any actions that could create the impression of bias or that could be perceived as discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. Can you imagine the Fundie uprising in the U.S., if we ever sought this protection!!!!%0D
r13, when will you post Linda singing "Vienna, City of My Dreams?"
[quote]Now that he''s retired he lives in a tiny village, wears the full Heidi outfits, spends half his day walking his dog, and the other half digging in his little garden in the summer and chopping firewood in the winter. He won''t eat strawberries from the store even though he loves strawberries; he waits for the locally grown strawberries to be picked because that makes him "enjoy them more." He''s given up his cellphone, his computer, and I guarantee you he doesn''t watch 3 hours of television per month. He''s turend himself into a modern peasant, and he loves it.\
This is so Southern German I can''t even handle it
This thread interests me because my partner is German, we''re in our early 50''s, and we have a chance to buy a nice little house in a small village (750 people) south of Cologne. We''re giving serious thought to it as a place to retire. The village is nice enough, it has fantastic rail service to anywhere and everywhere, great hike and bike trails, and we can be in Cologne in under an hour and Frankfurt in less than 2. It would be cheap to live there, and a great base from which to travel anywhere in Europe. We can make it work financially (just), especially if we can get onto the German Health Care system.\
We''re not sure how the locals would deal with not only a gay couple but a gay couple where one is an Auslander from the USA. My partner grew up in a large city and has lived in the USA for 30 years so the countryside is foreign to him too. He''s probably more worried about it than I am.\
Anyone have any experience they can share?
Just curious, R45. Do you have an EU passport? If not, how do you think you''ll get residency in Germany? Just by buying property? Is that possible? I''m just wondering since I plan to retire in Europe somewhere.
R46, they can be civil-unioned spouses.
r45, you will be the only gays in the village!
LOL, I hadn''t considered that, R49. At 53 we may be the youngest people in the village from what I remember from my one visit.\
No, I don''t have an EU Passport, he does. I think that''s all we need, although we''re still trying to figure all this out. If there''s a sweet spot where he could go there and work a few years to qualify for the German equivalent of Social Security and whatever else they offer the aged, then it''s a no-brainer. (He wants to work to stay busy, it''s the German in him. I''m perfectly OK never working another minute in my life, it''s the American in me.)
R38 I live in Vienna and Rho its beautiful and channing its also vety depressing and boring the Ppl Seem bitter and cold. It Pans a lil to say that as I See this as I see Austria as my Country.
Vienna was okay but the rural parts, especially in the south, were not only conservative but narrow.
I encountered more bullies there than in any EU country, but found if you just roar at them and declare in loud American that we dropped the bomb on the wrong country and should have nuked them, they run away. They are also big cowards.
I liked Graz because of the high number of students who were sweet and open. The soldiers are also more sophisticated than the general rural population.
The oddest thing about Austrians (South and East except Vienna) is their almost religious-like faith in the power of pumpkin seeds to cure anything.
For sheer beauty, visit the Lake district outside of Salzburg.
If you can arrange it, visit a local fire station. Some of their equipment seems almost Space Age and is beautiful as well as functional.
[quote]My partner's father lives right across the border in Bavaria, so the attitude's about the same
I was in Oberndorf, Austria and walked across a bridge over the Salzach River to Germany and there was a totally different feeling. Austrians, friendly and warm, Germans, very standoffish and businesslike.
Austria is an euro-conservative's wet dream: religious, a strong family-oriented society, a pervasive low-level racism. It also has an advanced, diversifyed capitalist economy with virtualy no unemployment combined with a very strong state and public administration, offering great quality public services (this is why I said euro-conservative, I don't think american Republicans would like Austria's sprawling public services and high taxation).
[quote]We can make it work financially (just), especially if we can get onto the German Health Care system.
Why would you expect that if you have not contributed to the system, at all?
Oh, I vud say it's a very open liberal atmosphere. At least for me it was.
Kurt Waldheim, Exposed War Criminal
I don't know much about Austria but if they're anything like Germans. Look out. I work for a company that has a lot of Germans working over hear with us. They are so cold hearted. Weird fucking people.
I have never been to Austria myself, but here is a story for y'all ...
My ex had a friend from childhood, a non-Austrian himself, who had lived in Vienna for years. Said fellow, the guy's (Austrian) gf, my ex and I went to a nice restaurant in NYC for lunch. My ex left briefly to visit the mens' room at one point, so missed the Austrian lady - someone with a snooty job title with an international organization, NOT a hick/peasant by any means - take out her camera to snap a photo of (nearby) black people dining! Her bf got to her early enough to prevent an actual photograph to be taken. She wasn't particularly ashamed of herself, more like "what-EVER!"
Well, there are nearly no black people or asians in Austria. I had spent already a week in the countryside and 4 days in Vienna before i saw the first non-white person. Most inmigrants are from the balkans, spec. albanians.
R57, R58 Yup Sounds about right. There is definately a Lot of racism going On, I myself dont Look German and I had alot of racist encounters mind you im Clearly caucasian just Not blonde n Blue eyed, what my Black Friends have to put up with is shit. And the people are cold hearted as fuck, in Order to be taken seriously u have to be arrogant and mean I am being serious! Also Austrians are very Cynic and get a boner from belittling ppl. Same with germans. Whenever I read such stories as above I feel so justified iny hate its so therapeutic can't wait to move away. Btw I haven't had an Austrian bf in ages, that's how much I'm put off.
Sounds like Mainers.
The Germans I work with just kill me. The stuff they spit out thinking that the person shouldn't be insulted. I should like them for it though but you just sit there waiting for the day you'll be the victim.
On one project a German woman was in charge. We were having a meeting. She looked at on of the other women in the meeting and said flatly and cold: "I don't know why you are in the meeting. You are not qualified to be here and can offer nothing worthy. You will just take up time.".
Then she just stared at her until she got up and left without having to be asked to. I mean every word was true but dam. The way she said it. There was no way it was meant to be insulting just completely factual and logical. Funny thing is the German gal is a hoot in a social setting. A butcher at work though.
Shudder. I can picture her delousing useless eaters. They fascinate me though.
Germans tend to be a blunt people, meaning that they will just say shit that everyone is thinking but won't have the balls to stay out loud. That trait causes a few ruffled feathers in the Anglosphere.
Vienna is a great city, I would love to live there if I could. Very artistic, culturally rich, great food culture. Restaurants and coffee houses are just the best. Vienna is a bit boheme and chic in a open, liberal thinking way. Great mixture of old and new culture. The annual Life Ball takes place in the town hall. So gay living is openly celebrated and does not have to hide. As a gay person it's probably OK as 10% of the population are gay. Not so sure about the rest of Austria. There are some areas that extremely conservative. You don't want to be caught dead there.
Have you ever seen the public toilets in Saltzberg? (I was in graduate school there).
They are little holes drilled into the floor and you have to put your feet on two grooved surfaces, squat and shit into the hole in the floor. I'm not making this up.
A friend of mine, who was born in Irak, spend 25 years of her life in Germany, then moved to London. She once said to me Germans say what they think even if it is unpleasant. In London people are always nice. But when you leave the room they start badmouthing you. She lives in Amsterdam now BTW.
R65 -- that is known to be found in France, too.
As mentioned before Austria is downright obsessed with keeping its own traditional identity intact (like France, for example, which has lost that fight thanks to the high rate of Muslim immigrants who refused to assimilate and instead brought the good and the bad from their - religious fanatic - culture with them). That obsession got right wing pundit and polititian Joerg Haider into his powerful position until he died in that car crash (one of the last places he visited was a gay bar trying to hook up with one of the patrons - he also is rumored to have hired BelAmi's Tim Hamilton on a regular basis / his party refused to appoint Haider's obviously gay protege as his successor). And of course the big cities are more open minded than the little villages.
Me and my parents drove through Austria to get to Slovenia (Ex-Yugoslavia) and made a stop at a local restaurant in a little village in the 80s. My dad (who ended up being an alcoholic) ordered a beer to his meal and when he asked for a second he got a non-alcoholic beverage without any words exchanged. As a kid I thought that was funny and a considerate way of telling my dad "don't drink and drive'.
To this day Bavaria and Austria's countryside and lifestyle are like one giant Hummel figurine diorama.
[quote]They all fit a pattern so far - small dicks, big balls, nice nipples.
What are their buttocks like?
Very rare these days, R67
Austria has always been very tightly buttoned. Until 1918 its nobility was the most restrictive in Europe: if you didn't have the 16 quarterlings (both grandparents on both sides born noble) you weren't invited to court balls, etc. That attitude of breeding filtered down throughout Austrian society. So when, for example, SS enrolment required 16 aryan grandparents, it was easy breezy for Austrians. Outsiders will always be outsiders in Austria.
We love Vienna and would love to settle there someday. The people are very pleasant and the food is fantastic. The weather is not that great though, nasty winters and hot humid summers.
From what we could see during our frequent visits there twenty years ago, there are no drugs - so perhaps it is not appealing to 'out' homosexuals.
[quote]Have you ever seen the public toilets in Saltzberg? (I was in graduate school there).
You lived in Salzburg yet can't spell the name of the city? And no, there is no "alternative" spelling.
"It's soooo Catholic"
"So very religious.... soooo very Catholic"
1 - Austria (like the rest of Europe) is a much more secular than the US.
2 - According to statistics (look them up) Church attendance in Austria is a fraction of what it is in the US.
3 - There are 11 countries in the world were same-sex marriage is universally recognized: Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa and Sweden.
Of those 11 countries, 5 are predominately Catholic.
Portugal, Spain , Belgium and Argentina are particularly identified culturally with the Church.
Other countries that have same sex marriage in certain regions are (Besides the US) Mexico (Catholic) and Brazil (the country with the world's LARGEST Catholic population).
Bills are pending in Uruguay, France, Colombia.... all predominately Catholic.
What some of you don't seem to understand, is that most Catholics today identify themselves culturally with the Church...with it's rites and traditions... but not with many of it's teachings.
And that includes Austrians.
German speaking Countries in general do not like Gays. Germany is bad, but Austria is worse.
R76 "German speaking Countries in general do not like Gays."
Berlin ( Germany's largest city) is probably the gayest city in Europe...if not the world. Starting with it's mayor Klaus Wowereit (in office since 2001) .... gee... SOMEBODY voted for him...
In fact Berlin is the world's largest city with an openly gay mayor
It should also be noted that Hamburg (Germany's second largest city) was governed by an openly gay mayor from 2001-10.
Europe is closeted, not gay-friendly place.
As an openly gay person you are probably way better off then in most European countries than in the US. Especially in the big cities. New born christians, creationists or mormons are considered as conservative religious weirdos in most of Europe. And I wont even start talking about scientologists ueberweirdos Tom Cruise and John Travolta.
R79, then why there are so few openly gay men there comparing to US?
[quote]She once said to me Germans say what they think even if it is unpleasant. In London people are always nice. But when you leave the room they start badmouthing you. She lives in Amsterdam now BTW.
No one talks shit like the Dutch. They hate everyone more or less equally, and if you give them a beer or two they'll be more than happy to tell you why in great detail.
I liked New Years in Vienna
Austria is very scenic.
Sounds like our own community R81!
Frankfurt, Germany too. A gay JEWISH mayor.
And Germany's got an out gay Foreign Minister. No big deal.
Always baffling to see how unwilling ppl are to at least try to understand a country's quirks. Like the guy who waits for his fresh strawberries. Well, this maybe so 'South German', but this guy at least understood, that greenhouses and transports via trucks through Europe harm the climate. On top of that, he still got the taste buds to realize the significant difference. Cudos to him.
But it's always easier to hate, isn't it?
Cujos to him!
R86, where do you get the "hate" from in my post (I'm R33)?
He's my father-in-law for Christ's sake, and nothing I said was in any way negative or hateful. It was a rather neutral observation.
I spent a few days on vacation in Vienna earlier this year and it was not the old, sleepy, quiet city everyone says it is. It was brimming with young couples with children and young people generally. Artists and indie types everywhere. It was like Austin with museums.
R44 gets my hate, not you R33. :)
Mercer Quality of Living Survey* ranks cities for quality of life.
On their survey, Vienna is again the highest ranked city in the world.
Cities are ranked on the following:
Political and social environment (political stability, crime, law enforcement)
Economic environment (currency exchange regulations, banking services)
Socio-cultural environment (censorship, limitations on personal freedom)
Medical and health considerations (medical supplies and services, infectious diseases, sewage, waste disposal, air pollution, etc.)
Schools and education (standard and availability of international schools)
Public services and transportation (electricity, water, public transportation, traffic congestion, etc.)
Recreation (restaurants, theatres, movie theatres, sports and leisure, etc.)
Consumer goods (availability of food/daily consumption items, cars, etc.)
Housing (rental housing, household appliances, furniture, maintenance services)
Natural environment (climate, record of natural disasters)
*Mercer is an American global human resource and related financial services consulting firm, headquartered in New York City. The firm operates internationally in more than 40 countries, with more than 19,000 employees, and is the world's largest human resource consulting firm and is ranked as one of the most prestigious consulting firms in the world. Mercer is a subsidiary of Marsh & McLennan Companies.
I have two Austrian born friends, both women, both lesbians. Both claim alcoholism is rampant in the more rural areas. Any truth to this?
Well, you have to remember, they ARE behind the times.
Instead of meth and prescription drugs, in rural areas over there, they still drink.
I would not consider a nation who used to round up gay men and murder them in concentration camps and yet still today refuses to give gay citizens full equal rights .... A QUIRK...... R86. More like lingering Nazi driven homophobia.
I hooked up a few times with a hot Austrian pilot. He was crazy hot, but definitely very closeted, and he said almost all of Austria had that sort of deep conservatism and closetedness to it. He flew to the States as often as he could to get to a place where he could get away from that.
There's a reservedness that I've seen in Austrian men, Swiss men and some rural German men that tells me they've had a very conservative upbringing. (But dear mios, those men are fucking HOT to me.)
Germany is way more diverse than most Americans view it. We think all the lederhosen, leg slapping, etc is German but in reality that's more prevalent in Bavaria (Southern Germany) which is more conservative and in some ways like our own southern states.
There's also the city/country differences as we have here. Berlin and Munich are more metropolitan. Other parts of the country would be considered "flyover country" by most DL queens.
Refuses to give gays full equal rights? What?
With the exception of adoption, in Austria cohabiting same-sex couples the SAME rights as unmarried cohabiting opposite-sex partners.
And the latest polls show 49% of the population in favor of same-sex marriage.
"I work for a company that has a lot of Germans working over hear with us. They are so cold hearted. Weird fucking people."
We're not cold-hearted, dummy! We just have no patience for your whiny adult baby habits when you're in the office.
R94 Yawn. Another one who learned nothing during the last 60+ years. Next. Wait. Please, do enlight me how exactly the US gives full equal rights to same sex couples? In every single state? Now. Next.
[qoute]Vienna is the best conservative place in the world, a perfect place to grow old in, beautiful, slow and somehow perfect.
Correction: Vienna is the best conservative place in the world, a perfect place to grow old in, for [bold]straight White WASPS[/bold].
There fixed it for you.
(R99 does not understand what the term WASP means)
R99 Thank you, Redundant Department of Redundancy.
r99 -- Austria is a Catholic country. Not much interest to WASPs.
[quote]Both claim alcoholism is rampant in the more rural areas.
Where is alcoholism NOT rampant in the more rural areas?
R80 LOTS of openly gay politicians, actors, celbs, TV personalities. You are ignorant and don't inform yourself enough about gay life in Europe.
R81 has it right. Having lived and worked in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands nobody, but nobody, tells you to your face quite what he thinks like a Dutchman. Blunt speaking (aka rudeness) is a national virtue.
The fun really starts when the Dutch go abroad and forget to adapt.
Maybe they really are just roommates and good friends?
German leader Angela Merkel refuses to give Gay German even basic tax equality, never mind gay marriage, however Austria is still even worse than Germany.
Not as much has changed since the 1930s-40s as people think.
It's true not much has changed since the 1930/40s. Gays are still required to wear a yellow triangle for identification. They still occasionally round gays up to be gassed and burned (although environmental activists are pushing for the use of lethal injections).
So typical of Germans, great on the Environment bad on people.
[quote]Having lived and worked in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands nobody, but nobody, tells you to your face quite what he thinks like a Dutchman. Blunt speaking (aka rudeness) is a national virtue.
I'm working on a project with a Dutchman right now. I know him, and I know that he's a nice enough guy and a generally decent fellow, but if you read all his emails and took them at face value, you would be convinced that he's biggest asshole on the planet. Even when he's trying to be positive and upbeat, he can't resist tossing in some weird little phrase or modifier that completely changes what he's trying to say and turns it into something negative.
The last one was actually him being cheerful that he was almost finished with a task and happy about how it turned out, but a superficial reading of the email gives you the impression that he's sitting there contemplating doing a Van Gogh and slicing his ear off.
Eh. Americans are almost all on some "anti-depressants". People who aren't, seem "negative" to them. You're the freaks.
R107 You have the same tax situation when you are gay than when you are hetero. Married gay couples don't get the same tax incentives. Also gay married couples are not allowed to adopt as a couple, only one of the partners can adopt. I think unfortunately these are still the two main differences between hetero and gay/lesbian couples in Germany.
"The fun really starts when the Dutch go abroad and forget to adapt."