Apparently, this went on a lot during the famine in the 1920s. It''s something that no one is suppose to talk about over there. People would return home with meat, and no one would ask questions. Even the children were sent out to look for people who had died from starvation.\
Has anyone read about this? Quite disturbing. \
"In his book The Gulag Archipelago Solzhenitsyn described cases of cannibalism in 20th-century USSR. Of the famine in Povolzhie (1921%E2%80%931922) he wrote: "That horrible famine was up to cannibalism, up to consuming children by their own parents %E2%80%94 the famine, which Russia had never known even in Time of Troubles [in 1601%E2%80%931603]...""
That''s so gay!
r1 isn''t even trying.
OP, you might also be interested in "City of Thieves" - it has a cool passage featuring cannibals in besieged WWII-Leningrad.
They are not sure if these stories are true or if they are urban legends. There was never any proof of cannibalism in Leningrad. That killer who murdered all those young people -- Chikatilo -- claimed his sister was eaten by cannibals, but the authorities don''t believe him.
I wouldn''t be surprised if Russians in West Hollywood still ate children.
In "900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad," NYTimes correspondent/editor Harrison Salisbury included graphic accounts of cannibalism during WWII. I remember reading this when I was in HS, and really getting nauseated.
Even today in Siberian prisons, an older, more experienced prisoner will take a young, naive prisoner under his wing, so to speak. The older prisoner propose that the two break out together. If the younger guy goes along with it and they break out successfully, the older guy will eventually kill the young guy and eat him for nourishment. In Russian prison slang, they refer to the young guy as a goat (yeah, a kid).\
This is apparently so common that, if a young prisoner does a good deed for an older leader within the prison, the young guy can receive a tattoo telling other prisoners he should not be cannibalized.\
There is an excellent book about Russian prison tattoos. I don''t think it''s available in English, but even the pictures are fascinating. They''re a language unto themselves.
what a frightening race of savages
Hungry people of any race are dangerous. I just read a book about North Korea, where people driven to desperation ate grass, frogs, rats, and possibly other human beings. Who''s to say what any of us would do if we were in their place?\
One positive thing about the US, flawed as it is, is that we have never commited the sin of deliberately starving people (Russia, China, Korea, England/Ireland) and have never experienced famine, as many others have in the world. It''s pretty gruesome.
Can''t hungry people just plant an apple tree or something?
r10, do you understand why many famines occur?
Why don''t they just eat cake?
Yes, can''t they just waltz into Chiportly or somewhere to order a supersize stuffed PretzelMex-Pizzaroni with Meat-Lovers Sausagefest and SourKreemCheezWhizSalsa on the side?
R13, I know!
Excellent fictional take on Chikatilo is a book called "Child 43." It begins with an account of a mother and her two sons fending for themselves during the U.S.S.R. in the 20''s. The mother sends her clever son as well as the clumsy one to hunt a neighbor''s cat for dinner. The cat has been kept alive by an old woman, but the old lady starved herself to do it. Now the cat is up for grabs. Unfortunately for the family, the clumsy son survives the hunting trip, but the clever brother is caught--presumably to be eaten.%0D\
Not only is this book a good thriller, I was fascinated by the glimpse of post-war Soviet life. Of course, I''d already heard the government refused to acknowledge serial killers, since their "perfect" society couldn''t possibly produce such a person. But I loved hearing about the political machinations and of a clueless party favorite who learns about real Soviet life the hard way.
Yeah, I am russian, and this period of our history was horrendous. I don''t get why people try to present it as something only "those russians" would do - history is full of examples of cannibalism during famine.
It was pretty common here in the U.S. during the depression.
Take your bullshit elsewhere.
I don''t think America ever experienced anything like that.
[quote]One positive thing about the US, flawed as it is, is that we have never commited the sin of deliberately starving people%0D\
Have you ever heard of Andersonville prison aka Camp Sumter? A photograph of a prisoner of war who survived Andersonville is at the link.%0D\
Also see the Siege of Vicksburg, ''resettlement'' of native Americans, etc. etc.
Not for nothing, but we here in the US don''t realize how good we have it.
Not in America? Didn''t the Donner party eat their dead when bogged down during their trek west in the 1840s?\
This also happened in China under Mao. Something like 70 million people starved because of the Dear Leaders'' crazy policies. Some of them ended up as dinner.
My dad is reading a WWII history of the Pacific theater and he said it references Japanese soldiers cutting off the heads of American captives and eating them.\
Such accounts don''t shock me. I think the reason we are the sole survivors of the genus Homo is that we killed and ate all the others.
[quote]Not for nothing, but we here in the US don''t realize how good we have it.\
Maybe 15 years ago a study came out about the absence of famine in democratic regimes. I can''t remember enough of the details to search for this online, but maybe someone else will. At any rate, you may find food shortages, especially during wartime, in democratic states. But where people have freedom of movement and speech, you don''t find famine.
So what regimes are examples? \
It sound very weird, you know. I''d say that totalitarian regimes have more risk of creating threat of famine because of disrespect to human lives, but opposite approach doesn''t sound very convincing.
Check out "Wisconsin Death Trip" for some down home Americana creepiness sometime. It''s pretty chilling.
[quote] One positive thing about the US, flawed as it is, is that we have never commited the sin of deliberately starving people (Russia, China, Korea, England/Ireland) and have never experienced famine, as many others have in the world.%0D\
However, every time Republicans take control of our government, we inch closer and closer to Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.%0D\
One more George W. Bush, and we''re done for.
Oh for God''s sake. A freak serial killer, a few pics of the Civil War, and some Americans try to say "We did it too! We did it too!" \
Sometimes I do believe that a fringe of Americans -- thankfully a tiny fringe -- really want to find a pretext to hate their own nation. "One more George Bush and we''re done for!" Ee ee. We''re all gonna start eating each other. Except we aren''t. \
We are talking about mass famine here. Not about mistreating and killing other people on a racist basis, which the US has certainly done. if you restrict the discussion to deliberately starving huge numbers of people, the US has never had a large-scale, politically induced mass famine in America. Certainly not in the 20th century, time of horrendous famines in Ukraine, China, Korea, (democratic) India, and swathes of Africa. \
So Wisconsin Death Trip doesn''t count.
"Maybe 15 years ago a study came out about the absence of famine in democratic regimes"%0D\
Amartya Sen won a nobel prize in economics for showing why famines don''t happen in democracies. Large-scale famines don''t happen because there''s no food, but because a large number of people is deprived of the right to aquire the available food. Either because they''re too poor to buy any, or because (for instance) Stalin has destroyed all the food resources in the Ukraine. %0D\
In democracies, the population has some control of the government, and elected politicians don''t let their constituents starve. Well, not yet, because if the Tea Party types gain power, they''ll make it illegal to sell food to immigrants or something.
[quote] Not for nothing, but we here in the US don''t realize how good we have it.\
All nicely fattened up!
Thank you, R30.
There is starvation going on right now in the USA. %0D\
Czarist Russia was full of starvation. So was imperial China. Indeed, it was so rare for a society to feed all its citizens that Bill Clinton actually declared victory over hunger sometime in the 1990s (when he was also dismantling the welfare state to make sure it would reappear). Of course it wasn''t really gone, people have always starved in America.%0D
Oh really? Starved in mass numbers? In the millions or even the thousands? As in the government using starvation as a political tool? Where in the US exactly?\
Some of you are pretty out there.
Way to change the terms, R33. The U.S. does not have famine, and it does not have people resorting to cannibalism to survive famine. I don''t doubt people go hungry, but they have rights and resources to help them survive, including the ability to pick up a phone and call the media to publicize their plight. But if you have evidence of Americans digging up graves to find meat to eat, please, do share it with us.
Not a good idea to try and make the case for a culture or people as better or worse. Many things come into play- historical context, geography, climate etc. If you must Mao wins the monster award hands down. Imported his agricultural crops (of which he had not enough as is to feed his people) in an attempt to appear as a great power while starving his people in the tens of millions. Stalin did as much in the Ukraine and to his politcal "enemies".%0D
On a smaller scale (how much does scale matter when murder is the outcome?) the American ideal of manifest destiny was a cover for American genocide. There simply were not as many native Americans to dispose of as there were "surplus" Chinese- and our leader viewed Indians as savages, equivalent to Nazis at the time.%0D
Six one half dozen the other.%0D
The questions really to be asked are why and how humans are so savage toward their own species. Well- we are animals, no better, no worse. Currently were are wiping out other species on a world wide scale that scientists rate as the largest and fastest mass species extinction in earth's history.%0D
Leave the morality of it all to those who know better than to pick one race over another or one nationality over another. When you do that, you are on your way to the same atrocity-minus the obvious necessity from time to time to stop barbarity (e.g., Nazi Germany).
[quote]Not a good idea to try and make the case for a culture or people as better or worse.\
I''ll respond by quoting R29 (even though I''m not sure his example of India is accurate): \
[quote]We are talking about mass famine here. Not about mistreating and killing other people on a racist basis, which the US has certainly done. if you restrict the discussion to deliberately starving huge numbers of people, the US has never had a large-scale, politically induced mass famine in America. Certainly not in the 20th century, time of horrendous famines in Ukraine, China, Korea, (democratic) India, and swathes of Africa.
That simply not true R37. Andersonville, where the prisoners were deliberately given no food or water or shelter, was deliberate genocide. Of course, some say Sherman''s march to the sea was an effort to cause starvation in the South.%0D\
Certainly during the Revolutionary War, American General Sullivan''s effort against the Iroquois was directed towards burning their food supply so that they would starve and suffer. People ate dirt throughout the South to compensate for nutritional deficiencies and those of you worried about your scarlet letter with employers should know that in olden days ordinary people were well-versed in what rickets and other nutritional diseases looked like for the purpose of avoiding such people, not helping them. People still starve in isolated rural pockets in every country, but I think Japan, of all places, has done more to eliminate starvation than any other country. Certainly more than the USA.%0D
When you parents were young, average datalounger, starving to death was considered a normal fate for older people.%0D
[quote]That simply not true [R37]. Andersonville, where the prisoners were deliberately given no food or water or shelter, was deliberate genocide\
As reprehensible as the crimes committed at Andersonville were, I don''t think they can be accurately described as \
[quote]large-scale, politically induced mass famine in America
Yes, OP, many people know about it - but not enough. Stalin killed more people by intentional famine, murder, and other means than who died in World War 2.
1921-1922 was the pre-Stalin period, dope.
The Republicans are working on it as we speak R40, and how dare you make such a dishonest answer when I already gave you other examples.
I think it dishonest of you to represent Andersonville as a "large-scale, politically induced mass famine."\
As for \
[quote]Certainly during the Revolutionary War, American General Sullivan''s effort against the Iroquois was directed towards burning their food supply so that they would starve and suffer\
As ugly as that was, I wouldn''t quantify it as a mass famine. You''re referring to people being starved by the hundreds as mass famine. Have you ever read about the famines in the Ukraine, China or North Korea?
Disagree with the morally equivalent post, Charlie. Stick to tales of Studio 54. \
The numbers of people wiped out by manifest destiny were small compared to Mao and Stalin;s famines. The killing happened in a different world, before we were supposed to know better.\
And it took place with freebooters running rampant against another race, not with the rulers of a nation imposing a famine on their own co-citizens.\
Repeat: America has been racist, violent and cruel. America has never used mass famine in its arsenal of weapons against enemies.
Mummy, I''ll take some more Tsarina Alexandra, please. And don''t be stingy with the gravy.
In Soviet Russia, Canni balls you!
I don''t get - with all this, are you trying to prove that America is better than everybody and americans are better that everybody, because your history was not as bloody, cruel, horrible as history of Russia, China, Great Britain, Japan and so on?
America has done truly horrible things. \
Mass famine, however, is one truly horrible thing that America has NOT done. \
Make of it what you wish.
Keeping it short.
The prisoners at Andersonville were given no food, no water (except for a tiny creek that ran through the property), no medical care, and no shelter. How is that NOT mass murder?
You''re changing the terms. No one said Andersonville wasn''t mass murder. It wasn''t mass famine. \
According to Amartya Sen:\
[quote]No famine has ever taken place in the history of the world in a functioning democracy\
If you would like to argue with Dr. Sen, please write him.
Andersonville was part of a war. Children and women, (I know, DL with a few exceptions does not like them), and noncombatants were not trapped in Andersonville.\
You cannot compare it to the Great Leap Forward in China, which married hero worship from old imperial China with the desire to "clean a slate." Millions of people died -- women, children, grandparents. And the numbers were far, far bigger.\
Also consider that the US at Andersonville was engaged in an internal struggle, and that Mao and Stalin wanted to convert the world to communism. \
r27 I LOVE that movie
[quote]That simply not true [[R37]]. Andersonville, where the prisoners were deliberately given no food or water or shelter, was deliberate genocide%0D\
Was Andersonville a US prison, or something run by the Confederacy?
Confederacy, but arguably the US since 1980 has been the Revived Confederate States.
Where is Rich Russian Lady in all this?? Did someone eat her???
[quote]Of course, some say Sherman''s march to the sea was an effort to cause starvation in the South.\
It''s not a matter of "some say" -- Sherman openly implemented a scorched earth policy & was applauded for doing so. And it worked.
Sarah, Bristol, Todd Palin. There that should complete the thread. God Datalounge sucks now.
How come Asians can''t hold their liquor, but Russians who look entirely Asian can live on Vodka just like all the other Russians?
They didn''t feed the prisoners in Andersonville b/c they had no food themselves. Compared to the prisoners, the guards were well fed but we''re talking about parched corn gruel and dirty water. \
The whole south nearly starved to death. Sherman''s psychopathic ass then proceeded to burn what little crops remained. He was a horrible person who waged war on civilians.
This wouldn''t be an issue if they had more Safeways.
Another dead thread bumped up by deadbeats.
wow just a shocking story but I guess if you're really hungry you'll be forced to die or turn to cannibalism...
There's a great episode about the this famine on [italic]American Experience[/italic]: The Great Famine. Herbert Hoover and the American Relief Administration went over there with American food and grain. They administered relief in several different districts. Details at link below:
I thought Andersonville was the name of a fire house in Manhattan
R62, who are these deadbeats you're referring to?
All of these threads on Russian affairs, refugees, and cannibalism, etc. were started by people -- or one person -- from the paying member category.
Two years ago, I saw a documentary in which they talked about the induced famine in 19 century India, by the Brits. They estimated that 10-20 million Indians starved to death. The great enlightened British did that on purpose.
I was mortified and it was the first time I heard about it.
Cannibalism is our future
Read Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"
R17 gets his entire knowledge of history from watching TV shows like RuPaul's Drag Races when the drag queens discuss the history of fashion, I think.
Canibalism outside occult religions and cults occurs mostly in poor countries where an individual's life is worth nothing and survival of the fittest is a common goal.
"How come Asians can't hold their liquor, but Russians who look entirely Asian can live on Vodka just like all the other Russians?"
Asians - with a traditionally rice-based diet - don't have the ability of Westerners to process the same quantity of strong grape/grain/potato-based alcohols (though apparently this may be changing, as Asians are becoming more experienced to Western foodstuffs)
As for Russians (and Eastern Europe)of whatever ethnicity, there is a tradition of getting as drunk as as quickly and cheaply as possible on whatever in that once wretched country...
There are also cultural reasons - for instance in Britain, for most of its history, only a COMPLETE and UTTER idiot would have drunk untreated water. Before modern sanitizing techniques, the only ways were to boil it (expensive) or brew/adulterate it (cheaper and more profitable)...
Short and to the point(ish) - there have been PhDs written on this subject...